They’ve won.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

i don't know where you get the idea that blacks have more agility than whites, even in the NFL... take a look at the Combine or collegiate Pro day results, and you will see white guys blowing up all over the agility drills. look at Hass, for example. his 40 time wasn't spectacular, but his vertical and agility times were elite!

the list of explosively quick whites is long and distinguished, much like my... well you get the idea.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

True Kevin Kasper has the 3 cone record and Hass had the best 3 cone time of all the WR's in this past draft at Pro Day...so I guess I will have to take that back. However I think that the 3 cone is more footwork agility and quickness than the kind of agility I was talking about...I meant the ability to make a two leg cut on a dime like the 3 RB's I mentioned did...It could just be that you never get to see small white HBs in the NFL. The system is so biased they were even calling Luke Staley (although he wasn't a short HB) tight hipped on his NFL.com profile...ridiculous!Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

first of all, do you know how stupid you sound?

I think that the 3 cone is more foowork agility and quickness than the kind of agility i was talking about...

let me get this straight... some types of moving really quickly from one spot to another aren't as good as other ways? even when they're faster? huh?

but now onto your point before you edited that last post...

you don't get to see short white RBs in the NFL because you don't get to see them in college, either. or any white RBs for that matter.

if you want to see white RBs get a legitimate shot to carry the ball, you have to go to the lower NCAA Divisions. there, white backs routinely dominate the competition, proving to be both more productive and more physically gifted than their black counterparts. of course even then the NFL gives the nod to the black backs, but it is MUCH easier to make comparisons when comparing apples to apples... so here goes.

the first example that comes to mind which provides an easy and direct comparison is the case of Josh Ranek/
Lamar Gordon. the two competed against each other in the same conference. Ranek was MUCH more productive, and then proved to be the more superior physical specimen as well, measuring out to be faster, quicker, stronger, the whole package.

so guess what happened? that's right! the record-setting white back was overlooked in favor of the lesser talented, but blacker, back. Ranek never got a smell of the NFL, but Gordon has been stinking up the place.

gordon, who was a couple inches taller, slightly heavier, but with SEVERE fumble-itis, spent a number of years in the League, never doing much of anything, but always considered a legitimate potential starter.

Ranek, on the other hand, spent less than two days in the Cowboys' training camp before getting kicked to the curb. since then he has DOMINATED the CFL, running for over 1,000 yards 3-straight seasons and proving to be one of the most versatile backs to ever play in the league.

sounds to me like he got a REAL fair shake, because the NFL doesn't care at all about skin color.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

first of all, do you know how stupid you sound?

Jeez, you don't have to respond to differences in opinion w/ personal attacks! It just makes you seem small minded. I post on this board b/c it's fun, and b/c I like to follow white athletes. It bothers me that whites are discriminated against. I enjoy cheering for the white athletes that make it to the NFL at the taboo positions for whites, b/c they are fighting overwhelming odds and prejudice. Any white athlete that makes it into the NFL at those positons has had to go way above and beyond what blacks have to do as far as performance or they would have been funneled out. I like underdog stories.

Secondly, being nasty to someone who agrees with you most of the time does not set up any kind of real dialouge on this site. I still think I have a point with the agility issue..I think there are different kinds of agility just the way that quickness is different than speed..in my opinion being able to cut off of both legs at full speed is a different kind of agility than the 3 cone drill, I could be wrong.

I don't really even watch much Div I American football. It is hard to find in Canada, so I applaud you for having the time to follow Div 2 and 3. However, just because you know more about college football than me doesn't mean you need to be condescending!...and I don't need to be educated on why there are no starting NFL HBs. If you've read my posts before...I am aware of the fact that even top highschool HBs of this year like Joe Maritinek and heck even Brian Leonard were slotted by caste zeolots like Scout.com and Rivals as LB candidates

Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[OC football]

On Troy Smith.....

I hope that he goes in the first round. I hope he is the #1 pick. Then when he gets into the NFL people will begin to see how rediculous his draft position really was....

How in the world does a guy who is only 6'0" go in the first round as a QB these days? He doesnt have the 4.3 speed of Vick. Troy runs the 40 in 4.6 seconds. It will be very very difficult for Troy to be successful under that pretense.

When was the last time that such a small guy, who is not fast for his size, drafted in the first round as a QB??? This is a step backwards for the NFL QB.

Smith should be a 3rd rounder, at best, because of his lack of height. I know its harsh but NFL teams must go with what will most likely help them win.

 

[Alpha Male]

The problem with TOUGHJ.RIGGINS assessment of agility is that it is highly based in opinion. An argument that says "I have yet to see a white guy with Barry Sanders elusiveness" is debatable. However, a measurable like a combine agility test where one players times faster than the other, allows for reasonable argument.

Scouts make these same kinds of judgments before any white gets a chance to prove them wrong at the combine.

 

[cslewis1]

I too was initially worried about Vince Young's "greatness" and the Titans moving up the ranks. But I then remembered Randall Cunningham, Kordell Stewart, Michael Vick, I absolutely guarantee Troy Smith will follow the same pattern, as will Vince Young.
Once the defensive coordinators focus on him, or the Titans lose, his name will quickly fall off.
The only black QB to have done anything are Doug Williams and Donovan McNabb. Steve McNair took the Titans to the SB one time, but that's it. SO, of all the black QB's that would save their various teams, only two have really done much.
So, I am not all that worried, not yet at least. If Young puts together a 12-4 season next year, that wouldn't be good.

 

[cslewis1]

Just saw I've been promoted to Caste football Guru. Sweet!

 

[White Shogun]

Doug Williams played one great game - in the Super Bowl. Other than that, he was a mediocre quarterback at best.

McNabb and McNair are both better quarterbacks than Williams, even though both lost in the Super Bowl.

They are both head and shoulders above Vick, Young, Gerrard, Culpepper, Brooks, et al.

But they are no match for Manning, Brady, Brees, or even Jeff Garcia, either.

 

[Ground Fighter]

i don't know where you get the idea that blacks have more agility than whites, even in the NFL... take a look at the Combine or collegiate Pro day results, and you will see white guys blowing up all over the agility drills. look at Hass, for example. his 40 time wasn't spectacular, but his vertical and agility times were elite!

the list of explosively quick whites is long and distinguished, much like my... well you get the idea.

Chitwood, you are a funny man. I'm just glad that last sentence of yours didn't go any further.

.

As for certain people claiming that blacks are more agile than Whites, these people are only going by what the see everyday in the caste-ridden NFL and NBA. They also don't have the intelligence to comprehend what the Caste System is and how it works, much less get them to admit that it even exists. They have obviously forgotton about all the other sports that require a great deal of agility, in which Whites dominate:

gymnastics, hockey (skating is based around great agility), wrestling, surfing, tennis, mixed martial-arts, skiing, snowboarding, rugby, skateboarding (don't know too many black skaters that can ollie onto a handrail), aggressive inline-skating, BMX, etc.

All these sports require tremendous agility and are also White-dominated. But the only ones that seem to matter to caste-system pundits, are football, basketball, and boxing because those are the sports that are blasted into our heads by way of T.V. everyday in this country. Edited by: Ground Fighter

 

[jaxvid]

Yeah gymnastics, how can you get any more agile then that? Why is that never brought up when discussing white athletes. Why are crappy cornerbacks the standard for athletic flexibility. It's ridiculous.

 

[Ground Fighter]

Yeah gymnastics, how can you get any more agile then that? Why is that never brought up when discussing white athletes. Why are crappy cornerbacks the standard for athletic flexibility. It's ridiculous.

Its never brought up because although gymanstics requires more agility than ANY other sport in existence, it doesn't bring in the money that football does. Also, its only televised during the Olympics and college meets are televised every once in a blue moon. And, of course, football gives all the caste system tards an excuse to point and say, "Look, blacks are superior, look, look."

The most talented cornerbacks in the NFL would have extreme difficulty doing even the most basic gymnastic floor excercises. They'ed kill themselves just walking from one end of a balance beam, to the other. Rings? I don't think so. Parallel bars? You've got to be kidding. It would be so comical to watch though.

Edited by: Ground Fighter

 

[Bart]

Yeah gymnastics, how can you get any more agile then that? Why is that never brought up when discussing white athletes.

I love watching the Olympic Gymnastic competitions. The men's all arounds showcase the best athletes in the world.They are flexible, agile, strong, poised and extremely skilled. The standard for excellence in obtaining a medal in any discipline is unbelievably high. One tiny mistake can often doom ones chances of medaling. Their movements must be very precise and controlled.They practice several hours a day for years in the hopes of winning a medal.Even afteracquiringthe coveted gold, the vast majority of them don't make any money in endorsements and are forgotten in a short time. The best gymnastic teams in the world have one thing in common. All of them,are almost totally devoid of blacks, and that is why they are never brought up when discussing athletic prowess.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

TJR, first of all i wasn't being mean, small-minded, condescending, or nasty. i was pointing out how ridiculous your statement sounded. the NFL bases its determination of quickness upon using the 3-cone drill because it requires athletes to change directions at high speed. the atheletes must change direction multiple times, so they do "cut off of both legs at full speed" so your point is moot.

secondly, of course there IS technique involving good footwork! just as there is when a RB makes a cut during a game... good footwork is essential.

now whether the NFL's test is capable of judging an athlete's quickness accurately is another debate. but as long as the players are on a level playing field with regard to said measurables, the comparison is valid.

when they get the chance, white athletes do more than measure up... they often dominate. and when you take into consideration how few white skill position athletes even get invited to the Combine, the percentage of stellar performances is incredibly impressive.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

hey Ground Fighter, glad you liked it.

i thought i'd drop that in there and see if anybody picked up on it. heh.

as for the gymnastics notion, you guys make a GREAT point. but do you recall the US Women's team a few years ago that had the black chick on it... Dominique or something. anyway, she was of course America's best hope blah blah blah...

 

[Unitas we stand]

hey Ground Fighter, glad you liked it.

i
thought i'd drop that in there and see if anybody picked up on it. heh.

as for the gymnastics notion, you guys make a GREAT point. but do you
recall the US Women's team a few years ago that had the black chick on
it...
Dominique or something. anyway, she was of course America's best
hope blah blah blah...

Dawes couldn't hold a candle to beatiful Anna Pavlova!!

Anna_Pavlova.jpg">[/IMG]Edited by: Unitas we stand

 

[Unitas we stand]

Damn!! why can't I post an image???

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

The problem with TOUGHJ.RIGGINS assessment of agility is that it is highly based in opinion. An argument that says "I have yet to see a white guy with Barry Sanders elusiveness" is debatable. However, a measurable like a combine agility test where one players times faster than the other, allows for reasonable argument.

I feel the need to defend myself, I don't like being labeled on this site by Chitwood as stupid, when I am on your side. As you know, I am definitley a big believer in defeating the caste system. However, many of us agree that blacks are slightly faster on average than whites. Therefore in my estimate, there is certainly a chance that blacks are "slightly" more agile as well.

I will clarify my opinion that the 3 cone drill is a different kind of agility than the type that "rare" HBs like Barry Sanders posess:

John Madden made an interesting comment about Marshall Faulk a couple years ago. Marshall pulled an amazing move where he juked a LB swivling his hips in a ridiculous way. He exploded off of two legs barley slowing down. Madden stated something like this:
"Did you see that move he pulled, there are very few running backs that can make a sharp cut off of two legs like that. It takes very loose hips to do that, it reminded me of Barry Sanders!"

I think blacks possess a slight advantage in hip swerve. If there is a stereotype out there..usually there is a grain of truth to it. People overplay this stereotype (as w/ all racial stereotypes in my opinion) as if there was a huge disparity when it is really very small. I agree that it is part of the discrimination problem. Another note is that whites are often labeled as being tight hipped on the dance floor compared to blacks, again this is overplayed.

It is my opinion that whites like Kevin Kasper (who also happens to be "very" fast) and Mike Hass, who do phenomenally in the 3 cone possess great short area quickness, great footwork and an ability to make sharp cuts off of one leg...one of my friends refers to the cuts, that are common of receivers, as skip cuts or darting cuts. The kind of agility they have in my opinion is based less on hip swerve. I believe that blacks "on average" have slightly more flexable hips. I have also heard the theory that blacks have more fast twitch muscles in their calves, but I am not a subscriber to this theory. Especially so, when most of the top high jumpers currently are caucasians.

If I was going to list a physical advantage whites have in my opinion, it would be possessing more powerful quads. This could attest to the fact that whites fare better in Squating lifts for instance. It also is why whites fare better at wrestling and are better Offensive linemen in my opinion. Powerful Quads (in addition to calves and other muscles) are also very useful in getting a great burst off the line in a race which is why whites are just as quick, possibly even quicker than blacks. It is also my opinion, that Quads greatly aid an athlete in slowing down momentum to change directions as you have to do in a drill like the shuttle, and somewhat in the 3 cone.

I totally agree with the posters on this site that white HB's are discriminated against. I am not a "black power" supporter as far as athletics. I would go even further than some on this site by saying that I believe that whites should make up 60-80% of the WR's in the league if it were fair...However, it is my opinion that HB would only be between 30-50% percent white in my opinion without the caste system. I also believe that FBs are greatly under utilized as runners and that it is a position that whites are superior at!

If I was going to list another postion where whites are blatently being screwed out of deserving chances to play I would say DT is a big one. It is a position of strength and leg drive. Whites should make up 90% or so of this positon. However, there are very few whites starting in the league at this position. Players like Keith Brooking and Urlacher have "weakened" the caste system for whites at LB. I am also hopeful that players like Aaron Kampman are going to weaken the caste system at DE.

I am done with this rant...I have to take a break and eat something...I just want everyone to know I am on your side and don't like it when certain posters respond with personal attacks because of a difference in opinion. Posting should be fun. If we all had the exact same veiws this site wouldn't bring any informative diolouge or be interesting. As long as your not a troll who comes on this site to mock us, we should be more hospitable to one another!Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[Don Wassall]

You're a good poster, TJR. All of us here have been in discussions that have gotten a bit heated at times. Don't let it discourage you from continuing to express your views.

 

[Leonardfan]

TJR, I enjoy your posts. I think you bring alot of valid points to the table and I agree with alot. Keep up the good work.

 

[jaxvid]

You're a good poster, TJR.  All of us here have been in discussions that have gotten a bit heated at times.  Don't let it discourage you from continuing to express your views.

Yes, TJR I think your posts are good and like to read them. I also think you have some valid points but as with any opinion there are others that may feel differently. Jimmy C is a class act and I don't feel he was trying to insult you personally. He did not refer to you as stupid but rather to the point you were making.

Remember we have all been beaten up for years by people that say blacks are this and blacks are that and don't use any facts to back it up just their own personal opinions. We all have to remember that there is a lot of grey in the black and white of the world and to cut each other slack on issues of controversy.

A thick skin is also recommended.

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

TJR, first of all i wasn't being mean, small-minded, condescending, or nasty. i was pointing out how ridiculous your statement sounded. the NFL bases its determination of quickness upon using the 3-cone drill because it requires athletes to change directions at high speed. the atheletes must change direction multiple times, so they do "cut off of both legs at full speed" so your point is moot.

now whether the NFL's test is capable of judging an athlete's quickness accurately is another debate. but as long as the players are on a level playing field with regard to said measurables, the comparison is valid.

when they get the chance, white athletes do more than measure up... they often dominate. and when you take into consideration how few white skill position athletes even get invited to the Combine, the percentage of stellar performances is incredibly impressive.

I didn't see your post regarding the 3 cone drill...I was working too long on a rebuttle...I guess you are probably right on this, they probably cut off of two legs...I never have seen a player run the 3 cone. I thought the cones were set up a reasonable distance apart in a squiggly formation like ski gates...am I wrong on this? Secondly I tend to be sensative b/c I have what is known as an auditory processing problem which makes reading and sometimes writing take longer...When I rush through a post I sound uneducated sometimes so I thought you were reffering to my fumbling of the English language. No offense taken...and keep up the good work on the H.S tailback posts they are one of the best posts on the site!

Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[White Shogun]

Riggins, why do you accept that blacks have a 'slight advantage' in speed and 'hip swerve,' but will not accept that blacks are more prone to be thugs? As you said:

If there is a stereotype out there..usually there is a grain of truth to it.

Is there a 'grain' of truth to the stereotype that blacks are more prone to violence?

I don't understand why people are happy to cite 'slight advantages' for blacks in some areas, without being willing to accept blacks 'slight disadvantages,' or propensities, in other areas.

You wrote that Madden commented on a run by Marshall Faulk, reminiscent of Barry Sanders, in which Faulk pulled off a juke that very few running backs could pull off. Considering that there are less than very few white running backs in the NFL, even NONE, then Madden must have meant that there were very few BLACK running backs capable of such a move. Maybe it has more to do with Sanders and Faulk being very special running backs, period, as opposed to something special that is inherent in every black running back to play the game? I don't need to list all the black running backs who couldn't juke granny off her walker, do I?

 

[pt.guard2]

ToughJ.Riggins wrote:

Interesting post, but I don't entirely agree...Yes, Young is helping the Titans to win games, but as usual being overhyped by the media because of his race. He has only recently began to have a decent completion percentage even for a rookie starter. A first year starting QB who's playing much better, such as Philip Rivers of the 13-2 chargers has taken second place to Young in media coverage!

As far as Troy Smith your point is true, but he is still being overhyped by the media. He's expected by many scouts to be the second QB off the board in this draft in the mid 1st round ahead of Drew Stanton...ridiculous! He's only 6'0 ft and only runs a 4.58 40 which isn't blazing for a small QB. I'd be surprised if he makes the Pro Bowl in the NFL. I think if he were white he'd be a late 2nd/early 3rd round pick at best!
------------------------------------------------------
Not suggesting that Young is not overhyped. Just suggesting that tends to go with the territory with QB's in general and that there are much better examples of QB's being overhyped in the caste system, since Young's team is at least winning.

Agree that Troy Smith is being overhyped as well, but don't be surprised if his stock falls between now and the draft....this may still have more to do with his winning the heisman and how his team is playing for the nat'l championship than a true evaluation of how he will do in the NFL.

 

[Jimmy Chitwood]

as White Shogun said, why are blacks given credit for "positive" sterotypes, but not held responsible for their "negative" ones? sounds like yet another double standard to me...

as for TJR's last couple of posts, i'm glad we got that cleared up without any ridiculous ranting.

as far as straight-line speed goes, i am not aware of any evidence that "blacks on average are faster than whites." rather, at the evidence points to the fact that at the very elite level of sprinting they possess a slight advantage. that's a BIG difference.

and the "hip swerve" thing is one of those non-measurable attributes that the NFL and college coaches/scouts have created in order to enforce the caste system. much like "playmaker" status, "hip swerve" is only present in black players. it's funny that the only things blacks "really" dominate over whites are un-quantifiable... this coming from the sport of football where they wish to measure EVERYTHING. *shakes his head*

your dancing example gives me proof to make my point about hip swerve... the stereotype is that white men/people can't dance, right? if they had more hip swerve, then they could dance and carry a football much better.

i would like to know then why the vast majority of professional dancers haven't figured this out? it turns out, that most of the best dancers in the world are white... hmmm...