Traditional Values

Bart

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JD074 said:
It's not about Christians vs. atheists, it's about those who serve our best interests, and those who are harming us. The Catholic Church, for example, having taken a stance on illegal immigration that is diametrically opposed to the best interests of white Americans, is an enemy just as much as any "secular" liberal. Our "Evangelical" president is the biggest enemy that we face today. Arlen Specter, John McCain, Ted Kennedy... I don't care one whit about their religion. They're the enemy.

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I agree completely. If a leader should arise who is willing to close the borders NOW ...and forciblyrepatriateinterlopers, they will have my respect, admiration and vote. I wouldn't care ilf they were Catholic, Mormon, Wiccan, Agnostic or Atheist.
 

guest301

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Ok. Good luck in finding such a supreme being! Peace out.
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White_Savage

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guest301 said:
That's what I meant. Heaven's not going to be Montana, it's not going to be lily-white. is.

Do you really want a Heaven that resembles Oakland/Nawlins/Capetown/Guadalajara/Bangkok/Baghdad/etc?
 

guest301

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No I don't, but that's kind of a strawman. I don't believe it would be that way. I know I started it but I really don't want to get deeper into a debate on what heaven is like. Let's keep both feet on the ground!
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Colonel_Reb

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White_Savage

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You asked me an equally specious question. Therefore, I will take your vision of a multi-cultural heaven quite literally.

"Do you really want a god so capricious he only cares about White people?"

I don't want caprice, I want specialization. People are different, with different needs, often in conflict with other peoples. This makes everyone having the same heavenly helper problematic.



Each and everything about each and every person on the deepest levels is a result of their genetics and their culture. If this means we "worship our race", fine, whatever you want to call it. It makes more sense than worshipping some other things I could name. Every natural organic religion (as opposed to "Wild Idea" religions which are often alien and imposed on a people by force) grows deeply from what a people is, what they have experienced over their long religion. The myths tell their truths, their Gods are like the men and women, and the good and bad, of the tribe writ large, the moral code and "style" of the religion reflects what works for a given people's, given their unique character and longings of their individual souls.

Not only do I think White men should follow their own ancient tradition that grow organically from their evolution as a people, so should Black, Asian, AmerInds, etc. I might not like living in the same place as Black people, but I realize the Black Way is best-Best for Black people that is, in a Black nation following Black religion.

It is amazing to me that someone like you, so favorable towards racial pluralism in a society (provably harmful), despises religious pluralism (proven harmless, except for a few "Wild Idea" religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) so much. Some say racialism has caused great evil, but religious exclusvism has historically caused more wickedness, war, and murder.

These are the proofs that Christianity is not "The One True Way":

1. If the Christian God was the One True God, the Only God that Exists and the only entitity that can actually render Help, then why do non-Christian religions continue to exist? If all other religions are impotent shams, then how has the majority of the world's population managed to maintain non-Christian religions against the mighty power of the One True Religion?

2. Since the Bible provably contradicts scientific fact and itself in several places, the its veracity can be questioned. If parts can be questioned, the veracity of all can be questioned.

3.Southern Knight wrote "There is not one single human being who can attest to what lies beyond this life because, in order to do so, THEY MUST HAVE DIED!"

This is not quite true. Some persons have temporarily "died" and brought back compelling and consistent descriptions of what they experienced. But these descriptions do not support the Christian model. People see dead relatives or pets as often as they see Jesus. Some non-Christians have met Allah, Buddha, etc, instead of the purported lake of fire. Even non-religous persons have seen simular things. It seems that practically every decent person has a happy-luvey near-death experience, Christian or no, and the non-Christians certainly don't seem to get tossed in a lake of fire.

Furthermore, there are hard-to-explain cases of reincarnation, definetely in defiance of the Christian model.

Finally, the persons in every human society over the eons who have shown some talent for communicating with the spirit world do not report it to be ruled by Christian God, or any other monarch for that matter.

Therefore, there is no hard evidence that Christianity is "The One True Way", inconsistincies with it's Holy Scriptures, and the evidence we do have of a supernatural world does not support Christianity as "The One True Way."

At this point, I must make the caveat, I am not arguing that Christianity is not A WAY. I do not set out to prove that Christianity is all bunko, that Christians won't go to Christian heaven, or, Dios Vos, that Christians will all be tossed in a lake of fire. That is what Christians believe about other religions, not what I believe.

My point is that you and other Christians always respond to argument's about Christianity involving social utility or personal taste by claiming that social utility and personal taste do not matter, because "Christianity is the One True Way". Since I have offered unassailable evidence that Christianity is not The One True Religion, pragmatic social utilty and personal taste is back into play, and constitute valid arguments for religious view, especially mine. This contradicts your (presumed) theory that I am a Heathen because I am ignorant of religion, Christianity, and the evidence that exists about the supernatural realm,(provably false) or because I am just fundamentally evil somehow. (Harder to disprove, but such prima facia assumptions don't lead to a very civil discussion, now do they?)
Edited by: White_Savage
 

guest301

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White Savage..No scientific fact has ever disproved the bible in anyway. Read Job 26:7 where we read a modern description of the earth as it spins in empty space. Isaiah 40:22 states that God sits upon "the circle of the earth" How did the writers know that the world wasn't flat? The bible often tells us things before they happen. The prophet Isaiah talks about the Persian King Cyrus (Isaiah 45:11) who would eventually restore the country of Judah. It happened. Isaiah wrote this during the rule of the Judean King Hezekiah who died in 687 BC but Cyrus did not begin to reign as king until 80 years after Isaiah died.Only God could know the name of the Persian King before he got on the throne.
Many historical prophecies of Jesus were given 1000 years before his birth. Notice the minute detail in Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and Micah 5.2. White Savage, there are over 2000 predictive prophecies in the Old Testament alone. Each is very specific and precise. What would be the probability of all these prophecies fulfilled to the minutest detail? Predictions concerning the fate of Tyre and Sidon(Ezek.28:21-23), Samaria, Babylon, Edom, Ninevah, Bethsaida and Capernaum have all been fulfilled with a exactness which defies explanation other than a belief in the Christian God. By the way I have never even hinted that you are "fundamentally evil". I don't think that. I actually think in some ways that you are more educated, intelligent, articulate and a better writer than a majority of the people that post here, including myself. But I just think you lack wisdom on spiritual matters and see "everything" through the prism of race and all the knowledge you have been been busily acquiring over the years have not helped you with your wisdom deficit. There are absolute truths, they are in the Bible and no other holy book of any other religion stands up to the test of time than the Holy Bible. Take Care and Good Night!
 

Bart

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guest301 said:
Heaven's not going to be Montana, it's not going to be lily-white.


I've read accounts written by Christian authors and ministers who claim to have had encounters with angels.I met people who claim to have seen angels. You know what is interesting about their descriptions? They always looked white! Some described angels as being of normal height and weight, others said they were very tall and powerful with a commanding presence. I don't remember anyone claiming to see a being which resembledDella Reese. Many said they appeared to have blue eyes, white skin and golden curly hair! Several books have been written by Ministers who wrote about angels, who it seems were white in appearance. I can think of Pastor Roland Buck, Rev. Kenneth Hagin and a Rev. Moore, right off the top of my head. I've heard sermons from other preachers who claimed angelic encounters, all of them describing -them- as white in appearance. I even recall a couple black folks who told me their angels looked white. So, go figure. Edited by: Bart
 

KG2422

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guest301 said:
Ok. Good luck in finding such a supreme being! Peace out.
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Christian Identity is such a faith. It claims that Whites are the true Israelites who are the ten lost tribes of Israel. It claims that Jews are an ancient enemy of Whites and that they are evil(Satan's people?). I'm not an adherent ,but I thought you all might find this interesting/crazy. Wikipedia has some links on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
Check out the Pre Adamite thought as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-AdamitesEdited by: KG2422
 

White_Savage

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guest301 said:
White Savage..No scientific fact has ever disproved the bible in anyway. Read Job 26:7 where we read a modern description of the earth as it spins in empty space. Isaiah 40:22 states that God sits upon "the circle of the earth" How did the writers know that the world wasn't flat?

How did the ancient Greeks know the world isn't flat and revolving? (Assuming the Ancient Israelites didn't think the world was a DISK with their circle...it all hinges on whether the actual translation is "circle" of "sphere"...but I digress.) Come to think of it, how did Democritus know that matter was made of atoms? (He originated the term and everything.) Obviously God was whispering in their ear...or not.

OTOH, why did the Ancient Israelites think Pi was 3, instead of the Greek's more accurate 22/7? You'd think if God was really explaining abstract crap to them about astronomy and the hydrologic cycle, he'd tell them something they could really use. And why not something that would ABSOLUTELY prove Divine Authorship in clear language? "Mars is red and made of rust", "Time slows with velocity", "This is how you build an airplane." Instead we get vague allusions that are hardly unique.

I've read the prophecies you speak of. First of all, there is no proof that any of them were actually written down beforehand. More importantly, when Daniel tells Babylon, the country that took the Jews into bondage, that they are going to be destroyed, this seems like exactly what a firebrand spiritual leader would say. Was Churchill a Nostradamus for predicting that England would win in the darkest days of WWII? Considering how violent and shifting the balance of power was in the Ancient Middle East was, predicting a given empire would fall is always a safe bet.

Psalm 22 proves little, except that the persons who wrote the New Testament were familiar with Psalm 22 (which of course they would be) and put some of the phraseology in Jesus' mouth. There is no way to independently verify what prophecies Jesus furfilled, or even independent verification that he actually existed, though I'll grant you the latter as a "probably".

Talk to an Orthodox Jewish scholar sometime. (I have one for a pen pal, believe it or not.) They obviously DON'T believe that Messianic prophecy has been furfilled and can give you all sorts of reasons why.

It's been, what, a month since I posted the full text of Matthew and Luke's completely different geneologies for Christ, and still no brave Christian has attempted to offer an appologia for it. That direct and undeniable example of a Biblical internal contradiction is alot more compelling than a few prophetic furfillments that may or may not have happened, IMO.

Lack "Spiritual Wisdom" do I? What a nice term, impossible to quantify or test, unlike I.Q. or knowledge. But obviously I DO have a sense of the spiritual, since I am not an atheist and argue against atheism. It's just that Christianity, the religion I grew up immersed in, is, upon deep reflection, repugnant to my soul (I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but thats what I feel) and doesn't speak to me...at all. So reason doesn't lead me to Christianity and emotion doesn't lead me to Christianity either, so either there is something fundamentally wrong with my soul or Christianity isn't the religion for everybody.

Nor can I be accused of seeing everything "through the prism of race" since for most of life I wasn't a racialist, since most of my ideas predate my racialism, and since, being at heart something of a libertarian/liberal/freethinker, I come to racialism reluctantly. (FACT: One of my favorite movies was, and still is on some level, "In the Heat of the Night" with Sidney Poitier. Alas, if all, most, or even a good number of black males was really like Mr. Tibbs, I wouldn't be on this board. But that movie image was basically a lie.) I'd like everyone to be basically simular and equal on average, you have to believe me on that one. The world would be nicer. But its not. If I want to view the world accurately, the mass of evidence indicates I have to take deep-seated ethnic difference seriously. And if I want to preserve the cultural and societal conditions I cherish, then I can't afford to be all luvey-liberal with people who have certain "differences" either.
 

guest301

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Wow you guys sure were busy while I was asleep. I can't begin to respond to all that, don't want to be a futuregohan who responds to every thing posted at him.
Bart, the lily-white beings you spoke of were angels and not people and while interesting that they were white it is irrelevant to what I was stating(that heaven won't be lily-white).Nice try though
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KG2422..I am aware of the Christian Identity movement and they are a bunch of wac jobs that not even the most racialist person here(racialist is a new word I learned thanks to White Savage)should be a part of. But it does look like they found a little God that was just for them. How sweet! I am glad you are not associated with them.
White Savage..I read everything you posted like usual and really didn't feel like my last posting would make any dent to proving the truths of scripture to you but it was worth a try. You stated that no Christian has been brave enough to come on here to discuss the "apparant" contradiction in Jesus genealogies in the new testament. That's right White Savage..although I am not sure 'brave" is the right word. Some of us are not theologians and we are not qualified to debate every line of scripture but I am sure there are plenty of theologians that can come on here and disprove your clains of biblical inaccuracy. I made a attempt to do so last night and I welcome others to do so If they dare to "scrap" with you. Edited by: guest301
 

guest301

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I had to post that before I was ready because a client at my place of work came in. Pardon the spelling. KG2422..I meant to say that no racialist here should be a part of The Christian Identity Movement, it wasn't clear from my wording. Thanks for the links. Nice read.
 

White_Savage

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For the record, I think the CI identity movement's position is historically indefensible, though anyone who would argue they are bigger wack-jobs than any other people who claim to be "Gods Chosen" is obviously bigoted.

Basically, they are people who realize how offensive the Self-Chosen's intensely arrogant ethnic views are to Whites (and everyone else) but who are too attached to Christianity, so they get into all sorts of logical contortions trying to make the obvious facts (That Whites are just pretty darn good, relatively speaking, and Jews don't come with halos) fit into a dubious doctrine, in the grand old tradition of religious appologia.

I don't recall Guest301 or anyone else offering any explanation for Christ's completely different geneologies. It's not the only Biblical contradiction, but it is one of the simplest and the one impossible to appologize away. Even if somehow two completely different name lists is the product of the world's most unlikely scribal error, that still means the inerrant word of God is in fact errant, that he has allowed millions of readers over centuries to be misled by this and other errors, by failing to "inspire" said scribe to accuracy, and as I said, one error opens the possibility of other errors. Perhaps that whole Am Segula (The Chosen) bit is also a scribal error?

I am working only with internal contradictions in the Bible here because for every scientifically impossible or innacurate thing described (the Creation story, people rising from the dead, the sun being stopped in the sky days, etc) one can simply claim that God can suspend natural law whenever he likes. Fine, but 1. That same argument could be made about "ridiculous" claims of other religions and 2. When you get right down to it, God could have created the whole universe two seconds ago, along our memories and all evidence showing it to be older than two seconds. There is at least one Christian theologian who seriously claims that God created all evidence of an ancient Earth, evolution, etc, as the ultimate test of faith that the True Believers will reject because it contradicts the Bible. Possible I suppose, but if we start to reject the reality of the material world and its evidence, aren't we basically insane? I personally find it quite useful to believe that the material world exists, that its physical laws are always true, and that the brick wall in front of me really exists.Edited by: White_Savage
 
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Revilo P. Oliver was a pre-eminent scholar, a professor of classics at the University of Illinois for over 30 years. His research and commentary about religion remain unmatched for their reason and meticulous documentation.

His works are available at:

www.revilo-oliver.com

There is enough material there to spend days reading.

Scroll to the bottom and read "Reflections on the Christ Myth," a historical account of the development of the Jesus story, which is nothing more than an amalgamation of numerous earlier divine myths from other cultures and religions.

Dr. Oliver's treatises on religion and politics are required reading for any person who wishes to consider himself educated. Check it out - you'll be glad you did and you'll be a changed individual because of it.
 
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