When Jervey was still young and in the league, the Caste System was kind of on hold, as blacks did not yet completely dominate linebacker, fullback, and tight end. In 1998, an all around good white athlete was still welcomed and you weren't far removed from the days of Steve Largent; when whites didn't face an all out assault in sports.
Good Jervey article
- Thread starter Freedom
- Start date
Sorry, I forgot to post the article.
http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/sbxxxii/news/jerv82097.stm
Packer Plus Online
Compelling story: Jervey writes new chapter
By Jeff Potrykus
Packer Plus writer
Aug. 20, 1997
Green Bay -- From the day he was drafted by the Green Bay Packers in 1995, Travis Jervey has provided a veritable library of engrossing anecdotes.
There were his routine struggles to adhere to the rigid lifestyle and code of conduct during his college days at The Citadel. There was a near-purchase of a lion cub, with the help of then-teammate/roommate LeShon Johnson, in '95. (Packer coach Mike Holmgren still chuckles at the notion of one of his players opening a mini-zoo!)
There was Jervey's success in the NFL's Fastest Man Competition in 1996 and again earlier this year. And then there were the stories of Jervey celebrating Green Bay's Super Bowl victory by checking out the sights of Costa Rica and Guatemala -- from his surfboard.
"Everybody has their fun thing," Jervey said of his off-season travels. "As much as Michael Jordan plays basketball, his favorite might be golf. Mine is surfin'. There are times when football compares but at the same time, surfin' is all fun. A lot of this is business.
"As far as things I love, I love it (surfing) more than anything."
This year, his third with the Packers and 25th on the planet, Jervey has vowed to take his football as seriously as he does his surfing. With Edgar Bennett lost for the season with a torn Achilles' tendon, Jervey hopes to earn playing time as the No. 2 tailback behind Dorsey Levens.
"I have gotten a little more serious, because I know what I want to do," Jervey said. "And obviously I want to carry the ball and I want to play. I have a little more fire in me this season."
That fire was lit before Bennett went down in the exhibition opener on July 26. Jervey says it was burning brightly when training camp opened.
"I feel confident coming out here," he said. "The first year I didn't feel it. Last year, I thought I had it but I didn't. And then I was experiencing fumbling problems. I just said, be the best special teams player I can be. This year, I want to be both."
Yet any hunter knows that a leopard cannot shed its spots. So, is it possible for Jervey to shed his?
Holmgren isn't too sure. This week he was asked if he had seen a maturation in Jervey. After a lengthy pause, he responded.
"I was just stunned by the word 'maturation,' " Holmgren said with a laugh. "He doesn't buy lions anymore. If that's what you mean, that's maturing.
"He's getting better. He is a superb special teams player . . . But he is from another planet."
That's debatable. However, what is a certainty is the fondness and appreciation running backs coach Harry Sydney has developed for Jervey's skills and personality.
Quite frankly, Sydney doesn't want Jervey to change.
"I see a more focused player. I see he is taking his job more serious," Sydney acknowledged. "But I also think there are rare breeds that come along. And I mean this in all the right ways . . . but you can't always tame everything. Travis is Travis.
"You can't take away what he is. You try to harness and steer it in the right direction and try to keep him focused. But part of who he is is all of that.
"It's like that child that you raise and he has all these different tools. On the one side he might be crazy and goofy. The other side he may be very serious. But all of it makes him up. To understand that you understand him.
Can anyone understand Jervey?
"But that's part of Travis," Sydney countered. "Travis is like a living legend. First of all, if you look at him he is not supposed to be what he is. Not to knock . . . but how many white guys do you know are built like he is built, can run a 4.2, can jump out of the gym?
"But he is flexible and can hang with anybody. All the guys on the team love him. He is not caught up with who he is. He is just Travis."
For the record, Jervey is listed at 6 feet and 222 pounds. He has run the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds. He can squat 600 pounds and bench-press 225 pounds 26 times.
In a league replete with athletes, Jervey is the complete athlete.
"To see him do some of the drills that I do for quickness, you'd be amazed at this guy," Sydney said. "Because he does it and he doesn't even know he is doing it. If you ask him how he did it, he couldn't explain how he did it. He just does it.
"For me, it is great coaching a guy like that because he has unlimited potential. And now he is starting to realize what that potential can be."
To this point in his career, however, Jervey has been able to flash that tremendous ability exclusively on special teams, where he is a demon on Green Bay's coverage units. His performances as a running back have been far more uneven.
A fullback in a wishbone offense in college, Jervey rushed just 211 times for 1,490 yards at The Citadel. In his three seasons, he caught one -- that's correct -- one pass.
"The thing is, everything I've had to do here I pretty much had to be taught because of my background," Jervey acknowledged. "It's taken me longer to learn but at the same time I feel good now. I get a wake-up call every now and then if I screw up. But at the same time I know what I'm doing."
Sydney concurs.
"We try to work on the little things and make you better because at this level you have all the tools," he said. "Hopefully I am doing some of those things because every year I have seen him mature and progress."
Save for one critical area: the ability to hang onto the ball.
Jervey's only regular-season carries as a professional came last season when he gained 106 yards on 26 attempts. However, he fumbled four times, an unacceptable 15.4% of the time.
"A lot of backs coming into the league have trouble with that," Jervey said. "It's obviously different from college. (Opponents) are more experienced in going for the ball and I was learning a lot."
For one, Jervey had to learn that when a running back carries the ball late in the game with his team holding a comfortable lead, as was the case for Jervey a year ago, would-be tacklers target the ball, not the ball carrier.
"Everybody is trying to tackle the ball in the fourth quarter," Sydney said. "He wasn't conscious of everybody going for the ball. He was trying to make plays. That's fine, but you have to know when it's time and when it's not time. That's part of the maturing process."
For another, Jervey had to learn how to better cradle the ball.
"When he would run at times he would put it (ball) out to his side," Sydney said.
Instead, Jervey should have been tucking the ball in tight to his body, so one point touched his hand and the other his elbow.
"Then the ball is protected by the arm, the forearm, the shoulder," Sydney explained. "Out here it's not really protected by much."
To that end, Jervey spent much of the off-season lugging a football around (except for when he was surfing).
"I just have held that thing with me everywhere I go," he said. "There was a couple of years of space where I really wasn't getting hit with the ball. I wasn't carrying the ball in any of the workouts in the off-season.
"I was so worried about how fast can I run a 40 or how much can I lift."
Statistics don't matter, Jervey now realizes, unless the ball comes along for the ride.
And through four exhibition games Jervey has yet to suffer a drop. He has rushed 14 times for 105 yards, an average of 7.5 yards per carry.
"He's matured a lot over the last year or so," said reserve safety Mike Prior, who excels on special teams with Jervey. "He's got a good focus. Instead of narrow-minded on the special teams you've got to be able to see the whole picture."
Holmgren made it clear he would not tolerate a running back who couldn't hold onto the football. Jervey didn't need a reminder that he wasn't performing in an acceptable manner.
"It was real stressful. Any time you do your job where you don't know exactly what you are doing it is going to be pretty stressful," he said. "I just learned from Edgar and coach Sydney. My first year he (Sydney) took me under his wing and really helped carry me along. I think that is where it paid off."
Being called upon to perform and knowing he wasn't ready to fill the role to the best of his ability was like taking a test, Jervey said, that he wasn't prepared for.
Jervey has been tackling challenges for most of his life.
Born in Columbia, S.C., he learned to surf before most children learn to ride a bike.
"That's all we did," he said. "That's why I never ran track. The best season for waves is during football season. So as soon as football was over all I wanted to do was get out there with my buddies. So I never ran track in high school. Never ran in college. It was all because I wanted to get out there and surf."
When Jervey considered where to go to college, his first choice was . . . Hawaii. Not exactly a surprising choice. Jervey, however, wound up a bit closer to home and his parents at The Citadel. His father, Ned, is a graduate of the school.
The surfer dude in Jervey was a misfit at The Citadel, a military academy. But it was there that he gained valuable lessons.
"As much as I didn't like a lot of things about the school," Jervey said, "it taught me to care more about time and being disciplined about things that you just need to do even though you might not agree with. Just like any job."
During his days at The Citadel Jervey spent a healthy portion of his time reading about a topic that has always captivated him -- nutrition.
Not surprisingly, he has a body that many body-builders would envy. In fact, he will appear in the October issue of Muscle & Fitness Magazine, in a story examining the top six conditioned athletes in the NFL. Representatives from the magazine talked with strength coaches from each NFL team and the Packers' Kent Johnston recommended Jervey.
During his travels in South America this past off-season, Jervey shared tips on nutrition and weight-training with any local who would listen.
"They were just really nice. They just wanted to know how to do it," he said. "I'd teach them about nutrition, about body-building. Just basic things about nutrition, what to eat. They don't have a clue."
When a gifted athlete such as Jervey makes more headlines because of his off-field interests and antics, the average fan tends to wonder whether the player has a clue. After all, which personality type is apt to be taken more seriously -- the boring or the buoyant?
The former, of course. Perhaps that is another reason behind Jervey's drive to succeed this season.
"I think that is just part of the maturation process now, being in the league three years now," said Steven Panus, Jervey's New Orleans-based agent. "When he first came into the league he was wide-eyed, everything was new to him. And now he has a lot more experience and he recognizes that it is his time to shine. He is trying to just grab the moment."
Sydney cares not about the means, only about the end.
"My bottom line: I want him to hold onto the ball," Sydney said. "In his right hand. In his left hand. Carry it under his knee. I just want him to hold onto the ball."
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http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/sbxxxii/news/jerv82097.stm
Packer Plus Online
Compelling story: Jervey writes new chapter
By Jeff Potrykus
Packer Plus writer
Aug. 20, 1997
Green Bay -- From the day he was drafted by the Green Bay Packers in 1995, Travis Jervey has provided a veritable library of engrossing anecdotes.
There were his routine struggles to adhere to the rigid lifestyle and code of conduct during his college days at The Citadel. There was a near-purchase of a lion cub, with the help of then-teammate/roommate LeShon Johnson, in '95. (Packer coach Mike Holmgren still chuckles at the notion of one of his players opening a mini-zoo!)
There was Jervey's success in the NFL's Fastest Man Competition in 1996 and again earlier this year. And then there were the stories of Jervey celebrating Green Bay's Super Bowl victory by checking out the sights of Costa Rica and Guatemala -- from his surfboard.
"Everybody has their fun thing," Jervey said of his off-season travels. "As much as Michael Jordan plays basketball, his favorite might be golf. Mine is surfin'. There are times when football compares but at the same time, surfin' is all fun. A lot of this is business.
"As far as things I love, I love it (surfing) more than anything."
This year, his third with the Packers and 25th on the planet, Jervey has vowed to take his football as seriously as he does his surfing. With Edgar Bennett lost for the season with a torn Achilles' tendon, Jervey hopes to earn playing time as the No. 2 tailback behind Dorsey Levens.
"I have gotten a little more serious, because I know what I want to do," Jervey said. "And obviously I want to carry the ball and I want to play. I have a little more fire in me this season."
That fire was lit before Bennett went down in the exhibition opener on July 26. Jervey says it was burning brightly when training camp opened.
"I feel confident coming out here," he said. "The first year I didn't feel it. Last year, I thought I had it but I didn't. And then I was experiencing fumbling problems. I just said, be the best special teams player I can be. This year, I want to be both."
Yet any hunter knows that a leopard cannot shed its spots. So, is it possible for Jervey to shed his?
Holmgren isn't too sure. This week he was asked if he had seen a maturation in Jervey. After a lengthy pause, he responded.
"I was just stunned by the word 'maturation,' " Holmgren said with a laugh. "He doesn't buy lions anymore. If that's what you mean, that's maturing.
"He's getting better. He is a superb special teams player . . . But he is from another planet."
That's debatable. However, what is a certainty is the fondness and appreciation running backs coach Harry Sydney has developed for Jervey's skills and personality.
Quite frankly, Sydney doesn't want Jervey to change.
"I see a more focused player. I see he is taking his job more serious," Sydney acknowledged. "But I also think there are rare breeds that come along. And I mean this in all the right ways . . . but you can't always tame everything. Travis is Travis.
"You can't take away what he is. You try to harness and steer it in the right direction and try to keep him focused. But part of who he is is all of that.
"It's like that child that you raise and he has all these different tools. On the one side he might be crazy and goofy. The other side he may be very serious. But all of it makes him up. To understand that you understand him.
Can anyone understand Jervey?
"But that's part of Travis," Sydney countered. "Travis is like a living legend. First of all, if you look at him he is not supposed to be what he is. Not to knock . . . but how many white guys do you know are built like he is built, can run a 4.2, can jump out of the gym?
"But he is flexible and can hang with anybody. All the guys on the team love him. He is not caught up with who he is. He is just Travis."
For the record, Jervey is listed at 6 feet and 222 pounds. He has run the 40-yard dash in 4.3 seconds. He can squat 600 pounds and bench-press 225 pounds 26 times.
In a league replete with athletes, Jervey is the complete athlete.
"To see him do some of the drills that I do for quickness, you'd be amazed at this guy," Sydney said. "Because he does it and he doesn't even know he is doing it. If you ask him how he did it, he couldn't explain how he did it. He just does it.
"For me, it is great coaching a guy like that because he has unlimited potential. And now he is starting to realize what that potential can be."
To this point in his career, however, Jervey has been able to flash that tremendous ability exclusively on special teams, where he is a demon on Green Bay's coverage units. His performances as a running back have been far more uneven.
A fullback in a wishbone offense in college, Jervey rushed just 211 times for 1,490 yards at The Citadel. In his three seasons, he caught one -- that's correct -- one pass.
"The thing is, everything I've had to do here I pretty much had to be taught because of my background," Jervey acknowledged. "It's taken me longer to learn but at the same time I feel good now. I get a wake-up call every now and then if I screw up. But at the same time I know what I'm doing."
Sydney concurs.
"We try to work on the little things and make you better because at this level you have all the tools," he said. "Hopefully I am doing some of those things because every year I have seen him mature and progress."
Save for one critical area: the ability to hang onto the ball.
Jervey's only regular-season carries as a professional came last season when he gained 106 yards on 26 attempts. However, he fumbled four times, an unacceptable 15.4% of the time.
"A lot of backs coming into the league have trouble with that," Jervey said. "It's obviously different from college. (Opponents) are more experienced in going for the ball and I was learning a lot."
For one, Jervey had to learn that when a running back carries the ball late in the game with his team holding a comfortable lead, as was the case for Jervey a year ago, would-be tacklers target the ball, not the ball carrier.
"Everybody is trying to tackle the ball in the fourth quarter," Sydney said. "He wasn't conscious of everybody going for the ball. He was trying to make plays. That's fine, but you have to know when it's time and when it's not time. That's part of the maturing process."
For another, Jervey had to learn how to better cradle the ball.
"When he would run at times he would put it (ball) out to his side," Sydney said.
Instead, Jervey should have been tucking the ball in tight to his body, so one point touched his hand and the other his elbow.
"Then the ball is protected by the arm, the forearm, the shoulder," Sydney explained. "Out here it's not really protected by much."
To that end, Jervey spent much of the off-season lugging a football around (except for when he was surfing).
"I just have held that thing with me everywhere I go," he said. "There was a couple of years of space where I really wasn't getting hit with the ball. I wasn't carrying the ball in any of the workouts in the off-season.
"I was so worried about how fast can I run a 40 or how much can I lift."
Statistics don't matter, Jervey now realizes, unless the ball comes along for the ride.
And through four exhibition games Jervey has yet to suffer a drop. He has rushed 14 times for 105 yards, an average of 7.5 yards per carry.
"He's matured a lot over the last year or so," said reserve safety Mike Prior, who excels on special teams with Jervey. "He's got a good focus. Instead of narrow-minded on the special teams you've got to be able to see the whole picture."
Holmgren made it clear he would not tolerate a running back who couldn't hold onto the football. Jervey didn't need a reminder that he wasn't performing in an acceptable manner.
"It was real stressful. Any time you do your job where you don't know exactly what you are doing it is going to be pretty stressful," he said. "I just learned from Edgar and coach Sydney. My first year he (Sydney) took me under his wing and really helped carry me along. I think that is where it paid off."
Being called upon to perform and knowing he wasn't ready to fill the role to the best of his ability was like taking a test, Jervey said, that he wasn't prepared for.
Jervey has been tackling challenges for most of his life.
Born in Columbia, S.C., he learned to surf before most children learn to ride a bike.
"That's all we did," he said. "That's why I never ran track. The best season for waves is during football season. So as soon as football was over all I wanted to do was get out there with my buddies. So I never ran track in high school. Never ran in college. It was all because I wanted to get out there and surf."
When Jervey considered where to go to college, his first choice was . . . Hawaii. Not exactly a surprising choice. Jervey, however, wound up a bit closer to home and his parents at The Citadel. His father, Ned, is a graduate of the school.
The surfer dude in Jervey was a misfit at The Citadel, a military academy. But it was there that he gained valuable lessons.
"As much as I didn't like a lot of things about the school," Jervey said, "it taught me to care more about time and being disciplined about things that you just need to do even though you might not agree with. Just like any job."
During his days at The Citadel Jervey spent a healthy portion of his time reading about a topic that has always captivated him -- nutrition.
Not surprisingly, he has a body that many body-builders would envy. In fact, he will appear in the October issue of Muscle & Fitness Magazine, in a story examining the top six conditioned athletes in the NFL. Representatives from the magazine talked with strength coaches from each NFL team and the Packers' Kent Johnston recommended Jervey.
During his travels in South America this past off-season, Jervey shared tips on nutrition and weight-training with any local who would listen.
"They were just really nice. They just wanted to know how to do it," he said. "I'd teach them about nutrition, about body-building. Just basic things about nutrition, what to eat. They don't have a clue."
When a gifted athlete such as Jervey makes more headlines because of his off-field interests and antics, the average fan tends to wonder whether the player has a clue. After all, which personality type is apt to be taken more seriously -- the boring or the buoyant?
The former, of course. Perhaps that is another reason behind Jervey's drive to succeed this season.
"I think that is just part of the maturation process now, being in the league three years now," said Steven Panus, Jervey's New Orleans-based agent. "When he first came into the league he was wide-eyed, everything was new to him. And now he has a lot more experience and he recognizes that it is his time to shine. He is trying to just grab the moment."
Sydney cares not about the means, only about the end.
"My bottom line: I want him to hold onto the ball," Sydney said. "In his right hand. In his left hand. Carry it under his knee. I just want him to hold onto the ball."
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Ground Fighter
Mentor
Freedom said:
That was Jervey's first mistake... being the typical "friendly White guy" to all the black affletes on the team. When you carry yourself like that, its almost an invitation for people to not take you seriously, and treat you like some poor retarded kid who everyone is nice to, just because he's retarded. He could have done so much more with his career, but he didn't because he chose to accept things they way they were. If I were in his shoes, I would have been "a' bitchin' and complainin'" to the coach, my agent, and anyone else, whenever I felt I was getting the shaft (kind of like the way Jeremy Shockey does, thats why he's actually playing and not sitting).
I loved him as a player (special teams of course
Alpha Male
Mentor
"Not to knock . . . but how many white guys do you know are built like he is built, can run a 4.2, can jump out of the gym?"
Plenty, they are just not in the NFL. They are in WSM, UFC, soccer, baseball, boxing, and on Wall Street. Secondly, how many black guys are built like he is built, run a 4.2 40, jump out of the gym, etc? It's comments like these from dumb coaches that help perpetuate the myth. It's infuriating.
Edited by: Alpha Male
Plenty, they are just not in the NFL. They are in WSM, UFC, soccer, baseball, boxing, and on Wall Street. Secondly, how many black guys are built like he is built, run a 4.2 40, jump out of the gym, etc? It's comments like these from dumb coaches that help perpetuate the myth. It's infuriating.
Edited by: Alpha Male
Ground Fighter
Mentor
Alpha Male said:
Hockey as well.
How many black guys are 6', 225, and can run a 4.3 forty? A handfull,
maybe? The guy is just a rare athletic specimen, period. Its ridiculous that
the coaches lay all the blame for not playing him on Jervey himself. Its their
decision whether or not to put him in the game. I think it has little to do if
he has a chip on his shoulder and more to do with the fact that he would be
playing RB. See, the blacks must be the ones to be in a position to pass,
catch, run, or intercept the ball. Also to sack. Not so much blocking or
tackling. Or going over the middle like a TE. Its hard to make the highlight
reel with a good solid game of tackles and blocks. They must have their
fingers on the ball or they throw a fit and are difficult to coach and get along
with. They plot and plan their end zone dances and sack celebrations, being
so very special. Look at me, look at me! Grown men that act like kids. Or
criminals. Take your pick.
maybe? The guy is just a rare athletic specimen, period. Its ridiculous that
the coaches lay all the blame for not playing him on Jervey himself. Its their
decision whether or not to put him in the game. I think it has little to do if
he has a chip on his shoulder and more to do with the fact that he would be
playing RB. See, the blacks must be the ones to be in a position to pass,
catch, run, or intercept the ball. Also to sack. Not so much blocking or
tackling. Or going over the middle like a TE. Its hard to make the highlight
reel with a good solid game of tackles and blocks. They must have their
fingers on the ball or they throw a fit and are difficult to coach and get along
with. They plot and plan their end zone dances and sack celebrations, being
so very special. Look at me, look at me! Grown men that act like kids. Or
criminals. Take your pick.
Sydney didn't mean to be anti-white with that remark. He was just praising Jervey. He was trying to make him legitimate by saying he was a rarity because he was white. If the coach said that there were lots of whites that were that athletic, he would come off as a racist nut and Jervey wouldn't seem legitimate.
Alpha Male
Mentor
I disagree. He should of said he was a rarity period and not mention race. By mentioning he was white and that it was a rare thing, it gives credit to the 80% black dominance of the NFL and near 100% dominance of the running and cornerback position when there are clearly white athletles capable of playing those positions at that level. Edited by: Alpha Male
I didn't know Jervey was that athletic. Tell you truth, I did watch one game, I believe it was a regular season, in which he was given a lot of carries, and he didn't do much. He seemed to hesitate when he hit the line. He played slower than his measurables, at least in that game.
Edited by: Hockaday
Edited by: Hockaday
Jervey was forced into running back duty in '98 when 3 or 4 black backs went down with injuries. Mike Holmgren was embarrassed that he had to use this white player as his tailback, and he did everything possible to undermine Jervey's confidence. Instead of the offensive coaches working with him, showing him how best to utilize his speed, not just to run forward as fast as possible all the time but to patiently wait to pick up blocks and then burst through holes as they developed, he was put in constant fear of being benched if he fumbled a single time, thus he never developed a good running style. He was all speed and power but with only very rudimentary skills on how to use them.
Holmgren was the same way with Bill Schroeder -- doing everything possible to undermine his confidence by screaming at him for every little mistake and placing him in his "doghouse." Oh how it must have burned Holmgren up inside to have a very talented white tailback and a very talented white wide receiver on his team at the same time. Holmgren always has a white starting quarterback, but after that he finds white players useless except as occasional offensive linemen and the rare defensive linemen.
WhenMikey finally broke down and signed Joe Jurevicius before the '05 season, that moved paid off big time for the team, but Joe was allowed to move on after just one season (replaced by journeyman Nate Burleson, who was signed to an obscene 7 year $49 million contract), while Jerheme Urban was just jerked around for years, probably setting the NFL record for most demotions to the practice squad.
Holmgren was the same way with Bill Schroeder -- doing everything possible to undermine his confidence by screaming at him for every little mistake and placing him in his "doghouse." Oh how it must have burned Holmgren up inside to have a very talented white tailback and a very talented white wide receiver on his team at the same time. Holmgren always has a white starting quarterback, but after that he finds white players useless except as occasional offensive linemen and the rare defensive linemen.
WhenMikey finally broke down and signed Joe Jurevicius before the '05 season, that moved paid off big time for the team, but Joe was allowed to move on after just one season (replaced by journeyman Nate Burleson, who was signed to an obscene 7 year $49 million contract), while Jerheme Urban was just jerked around for years, probably setting the NFL record for most demotions to the practice squad.
Yeah, too bad about Travis. Just shows that running the football is more art than science. Maybe if he'd have grown up in the midwest, away from the beach, he'd have developed more football skills growing up and not had to play catch-up in an unfriendly situation where the coach is always looking for a white whipping boy.
So Travis just faded away, huh?
So Travis just faded away, huh?
ToughJ.Riggins
Hall of Famer
I doubt that even a white guy who
had proven himself in division 1
with those freak athletic measureables, would
be treated fairly (ie. Dustin Fox, Kevin Kasper) Let alone a raw white guy (Jervey) from Division 1A
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
had proven himself in division 1
with those freak athletic measureables, would
be treated fairly (ie. Dustin Fox, Kevin Kasper) Let alone a raw white guy (Jervey) from Division 1A
Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins