the best players of 2012 according to british newspaper the guardian

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by frederic38, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/datablog/2012/dec/24/world-best-footballers-top-100-list

    a lot of jokes in that list

    rooney ranked 31st
    above him there are willian from shaktar, neymar, kompany, ibrahimowicz, and many other questionable players
    i don't follow manchester united, but i thought that he was a leading player in that club and since manchester is one of the biggest clubs in europe...he shouldn't be ranked this low

    casillas is according to them the best goalkeeper, you know that i don't agree

    falcao is ranked 6th (!) while higuain, who has constantly better goal scoring ratios in the same league, is not even in the top 100
    higuain has to be there because he has the best goal scoring ratio, no player in europe does better than him (when healthy, he scores every 70 minutes, and without penalty kicks)

    aguero should be above cavani (an uruguayan player overrated, i never thought that i would see that one day)

    benzema doesn't belong in that top 100

    regarding french players, they have aubameyang really high in this ranking
    i have nothing against him, i have posted positive things about him in the past, but he did nothing to deserve to be in this top 100
    giroud, who won the league and was the top scorer, is not even in the top 100

    terry is very low in that ranking too

    there are many many mistakes in that top 100

    almost EVERY black player is ranked too high
     
  2. ThePhilosopher

    ThePhilosopher Mentor

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    Well,frankly these types of lists are always quite stupid and inaccurate.Making it look like that list was compiled by someone with an anti-white bias serves no purpose,in my opinion.Because this list was quite big,there will almost be disagreements and whatnot. For example the Falcao and Higuain example.I think that Falcao has had a better 2012 than Higuain(I am assuming this list was based on the player's performances in 2012).But surely,surely Higuaain has to be in the top 100.Not including Higuain and selecting this Aubameyang guy?That's sheer madness. And no Giroud?Cest Blaspheme! I mean Giroud literally won the Ligue 1 on his own last time around.I do not know why,but the media absolutely hates Giroud.Maybe it is because he is a very good player(which he is).Or maybe it is because he looks smart and handsome.Well,I do not know.
    True.Yaya Toure at number nine?Ahead of Alonso,Busquets,De rossi?Well,now even I'm suspecting an anti-white bias.Yaya couldn't lace Alonso's boots!
    I agree Cavani is not top ten material,but I do not think he is overrated.I think he is quite a good player actually,and should definately be on the list.In the thirties maybe.
    Nor does Balotelli!
    That would be Gianluigi Buffon.
    Terry is ranked number 86 and Ashley Cole is at 30. What a sick joke!
    True. But the thing which baffles me is Neymar being ranked at 13. I have never ever seen him play but surely he cannot be ahead of: Rooney,Goetze,Tevez etc. FFS,he is ahead of World Cup winners Fabregas,Alba and Silva!
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  3. Arend

    Arend Guru

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    Such rankings are always biased and ultimately pointless, but here are the things I have noticed: I haven’t even heard about that Zambian “Emmanuel Mayukaâ€￾ from Southampton, but I guess he only made because he plays in the PL and he is African. Kwadwo Asamoah isn’t even a regular player with Juventus, why is he ranked better than, let’s say Sneijder?
    Why is Hummels better than Vidic? Zanetti better than Hummels? Özil better than Sneijder, Götze or Kroos?

    Victor Wanyama, Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang, Moussa Dembele:
    [​IMG]
     
  4. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    guys, these rankings might be biased, because you have to be biased towards certain leagues (traditionally the players from bundesliga are underrated in that kind of ranking) but this ranking right here is absolutely insane

    we could spend months pointing out the obvious favoritism towards non-white players

    here is another ranking posted by another poster some time ago, it was pretty accurate:

    http://www.castefootball.us/forums/showthread.php/14207-The-Score-s-Top-100-Players-in-the-World

    to do this kind of ranking, the way i see it, you have to look at which teams have accomplished the most this year and choose which players have been the most influential

    players from malaga deserve to be on that list more than players from atletico madrid
    isco has been incredible and he's not in the top 100
    demichelis is not even mentionned!

    also, i can't see a lot of players from the portuguese league: oscar cardozo should be there
     
  5. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    in 2012 higuain has scored 1 goal each 80 minutes, falcao 1 goal every 130 minutes
    and higuain doesn't takes the penalty kicks
    higuain's goals allowed real madrid to win the league (he scored the goal of the title, and the only goal of the match when real madrid took the lead in the spanish league - his goals allowed real madrid to win a great amount of points, he was the 2nd most important goal scorer behind cristiano ronaldo )
    falcao's atletico madrid didn't even qualify for champions league
    with argentina, higuain is the top scorer of the south american qualifiers for the 2014 world cup
    so it's not that obvious that falcao had a better year than higuain
     
  6. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    obviously they wanted a black player in the top 10

    yes, probably
    i would also put hart ahead of casillas because he has been very influential in manchester city's title

    they should include only players playing for european clubs, how can they compare a player in brazil who has never faced any player from that top 100? reminds me of pelé in the way they hype him
     
  7. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    to be fair it's because he won the african cup of nations with zambia last year


    this is incredible
    he's just a physical player for juventus, if he is in the list then gareth barry should be in it too

    and balotelli :undecided:
    when will he get out of these rankings?
    how many bad seasons do we need?
     
  8. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    how is etoo still in this kind of rankings
    what were his accomplishments, failing to qualify to the african cup of nations with cameroon?
    as far as i know etoo has played in russia in 2012
    the best russian club has been the almost 100% white zenith saint petersbourgh
    yet the highest ranked player from a russian club is etoo who plays for anzhi

    out of the top 3 players of the french league last year according to the french league and the media (whites hazard and giroud, mestizo nene) only hazard made it to the top 100
    yet blacks mapou yanga mbiwa and aubameyang are in the top 100
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  9. Arend

    Arend Guru

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    Truth to be told, the African Cup of Nations is really not that important and meaningful. Egypt won the title 3 times in a row and yet they failed to qualify for the World Cup in 2006 and 2010. The Games are often on a terrible level, both tactical and technical, and most of the time the team that “sucks the leastâ€￾ wins the title. And I don’t think that the Guardian included an Egyptian player just because of that. In Addition, he is not even the best player in his team (that is Gaston Ramirez in my view)
    I have looked through the list again, but I couldn’t find Claudio Marchisio. It would really put the cherry on the cake if they include Asamoah but not Marchisio.
     
  10. Europe

    Europe Mentor

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  11. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    you're right, marchisio isn't on the list

    that's the most insane list i ever saw
     
  12. ThePhilosopher

    ThePhilosopher Mentor

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    I never said so.I only wanted to say that it is not obvious that Higuain is better than Falcao.Higuain is maybe better than Falcao,but there isn't a "gulf in class",so to say.
    Also you must take into consideration the teams(both club and national) that Higuain,Falcao play for.

    At club level Higuain plays with Ronaldo,Xabi & co.At national level Higuain plays with Tevez,Masceranho,Messi,Aguero.
    Falcao plays with Arda Turan,Antonio Valencia.

    Yaya is only there because as said by Frederic,they wanted a black player in the top 10.

    Yes,Caludio must have been there.He had a great Euros too.
     
  13. ThePhilosopher

    ThePhilosopher Mentor

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    In my opinion that's Rickie Lambert...he's closing in on Le Tissier's record!

    (FROM WIKIPEDIA):
     
  14. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    yet falcao is in the list, very highly ranked, and higuain is not
    real madrid's striker is not on the list but they had to include atletico madrid's goal scorer, a team that doesn't play champions league
    let's go back in the past, when forlan was at atletico madrid
    he was the league's top scorer, the top scorer in europe, qualified his team to champions league
    another thing is the importance of the goals they score: forlan scored 12 goals in the last 8 games of the 2008-2009 season to qualify atletico madrid to champions league
    yet forlan had to be the best player of the 2010 world cup to get recognition, and althought he scored more than the real madrid and barcelona strikers of that time, he was not considered better than them (and higuain would score more than falcao if real madrid wasn't so obsessed about the middle east, if he could be the true number 1 striker of real madrid, which he deserves)

    double standards...

    higuain plays in a better club because he's better
    i remember when falcao played for river plate, he was nothing special
    then he started his european career in porto, where the low-rated south americans go
    higuain went straight to real madrid from river plate, and hernan crespo said that he was going to be his successor
     
  15. ThePhilosopher

    ThePhilosopher Mentor

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    Look I'm not suggesting that Falcao is better than Higuain!All I'm saying is that there isn't a Gulf in class.
    And Forlan's under-ratedness is something I'll truly never,ever understand.
     
  16. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    it was a rather bad timing to wrongfully include the black striker aubameyang in that insane list: right now he hasn't scored since the 12th week of ligue 1, and the 22th week has just been played
    he has spent 1000 minutes without scoring reportedly

    edit: ofcourse while i post that he scores :biggrin1:
    but the numbers are still impressive
    he's far from being impressive this year
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  17. Giles Daldanus

    Giles Daldanus Guru

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    It is always difficult to be objective when it comes to such rankings, Eastern Europeans also tend to slip under the radar. I think that Bale and Wilshere will soon establish themselves as top tier footballers (though I am not sure whether they will reach Messi-esque levels), the former has really been a revelation this season and has come up with many crucial goals for Tottenham. Here is a fun chart dealing with this topic (taken from the RedCafeforums):
    [​IMG]





     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  18. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    in the picture ronaldo is in the first category, while schevchenko is in the 3rd
    what has ronaldo done to be in the first category?
    in raw talent he was regarded as superior to schevchenko, but schevchenko was stronger, better physically, and better at heading the ball
    schevchenko's career is better than ronaldo's career
    ronaldo's career ended in 1999, after the big injuries he was just the shadow of his former self
    before that, he didn't manage to win titles with his clubs
    in spain he didn't win the league with barcelona, in italy he lost the scudetto and he was responsible for it, failing in the most important matches like against lazio and juventus
    when he was replaced against lazio he cried because he knew that because he did a bad match, internazionale wouldn't win the italian league
    with brazil before 1999 he has won the copa libertadores, with an important goal against bolivia in the final
    but in the 1998 world cup, he flopped in the final against france

    schevchenko has played in the same league as ronaldo, and he won the titmes, he was the top goalscorer ect
    he was also incredible with dynamo kiev
    shevchenko has won the champions league, ronaldo hasn't

    it's impossible to say that schevchenko wasn't better than ronaldo
    only people that hasn't watched football in that era and watched only videos on youtube would say so
    i watched football in that era, and we were all talking about schevchenko, not ronaldo, he was the one dominating european football

    PS: zidane was very beautiful to watch, but to put him in the same category as messi or distefano is ridiculous
    deschamps and makelele are also in the same category: the guy who did the list has to be english, so he knows makelele more, but deschamps has won every title in his career, there is no way he can be compared with makelele

    another brazilian who gets a lot of respect, more than the others, is ronaldinho
    why is he in a different category than kaka?
    kaka has starred in champions league, just like ronaldinho, i don't see any difference
    they both won the ballon d'or
    they should be in the same category, they have accomplished the same

    and kopa, very good, while zidane is best player ever, and henry god? :grin: kopa is the best french player ever
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  19. Giles Daldanus

    Giles Daldanus Guru

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    Yes, I am certain that the guy who created this chart is English.Unfortunately, Shevchenko is sometimes perceived as a flop in England (in my opinion Chelsea’s management did not provide him with sufficient time to adjust to the English game) due to his supposedly underwhelming performances with the team (actually in two or three important games he was deployed in a defensive capacity rather than as a striker and didn’t do too badly).
    As for the Brazilian Ronaldo, I am guessing that the 2002 World Cup wonby Brazil and Ronaldo becoming top scorer may skew perceptions, though it would be unfair to compare Brazil and Ukraine (Ronaldo played with more experienced and skillful teammates), otherwise footballers like George Best from Northern Ireland would have never received proper recognition. Also, one shouldn’t forget that during the 2002 World Cup Brazil had a relatively easy run to the final (no disrespect intended to Turkey or Costa Rica, but they were not considered powerhouse at the time). I agree with you that in terms of raw skills Ronaldo was amazing and at his peak he was better than Shevchenko, but if we are to compare them over the whole duration of their careers, then it’s clear that the Brazilian lacked Shevchenko’s consistency (not necessarily because of a fault of his own, he has been quite unlucky with injuries and retired quite early).Ronaldo’s hat-trick at Old Trafford during the 2002/2003 Champions League campaign is one additional reason why he is widely remembered by the English supporters, games like that remain etched in the mind.

    I remember Deschamps from the 1998 World Cup and Euro 2000, he was the motor of the team and his contributions are sometimes forgotten. Zidane had an excellent football brain and was a flashy player, but was a bit of an enigma (due to sometimes disappearing) in the derby matches and also had his disciplinary issues. Good call on Raymond Copa, he always tends to slip underthe radar when it comes to these discussions.

    Two other possible omissions are Argentinian playmaker Claudio Caniggiaand Dutch Ruud van Nistelrooy (I think that the latter is a superior striker to Overmars despite lacking his compatriot’s finesse), they could be considered“very good” at the very least. For example, Caniggia’s technical skills were certainly on a par with those of Deco.
    I am sure that in a few years’ time Ribery and Lloris will climb up to the “great tier”.

     
  20. Europe

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    Charts like that are nonsense.

    Frederic 38

    Should Keane really be in the same category as Lampard?

    I thought you said Zidane is overrated? Do you agree he should be in the top group?

    Why is Cris Ronaldo lower than Messi? Ronaldo has been great in 2 leagues. Messi certainly benefits from playing on Barca.
     
  21. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    yes, it's impossible to do such chart, especially over all soccer's history
    there has been so many white stars in soccer, it's impossible to put them all in a chart
    this chart is going to be biased towards recent players
    for example i don't see the swedish legends gre-no-li : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gre-No-Li while players like vieira, villa, makelele, are in the chart

    i personally wouldn't put defensive middlefielder in those charts: goalkeepers, center-halves, and all types of offensive players, but no fullbacks and no defensive middlefielders
    so no keane for me

    but those kind of charts are interesting when they are done well because it allows you to see what players are overrated
    and i see that zidane is overrated
    that's not the first time that i notice that zidane is overrated amongst those who speak english
    the guy who commented on the pelé article also said zidane was one of the best ever
    in the comments of this article too: http://isteve.blogspot.fr/2013/03/the-lionel-messi-halo-effect.html
    now this chart
    yes, zidane is overrated
    i can understand why a french fan would see him as one of the best players ever, it would be delusional but he scored those 2 goals in 1998 that gave france their only world cup
    then if you think more about it you'll realise that france's world cup win was lucky: there were much better french teams that didn't won the world cup (like the 1958 team for example)
    and also that france won because of a good defence: 0-0 against paraguay until the last minute of extratime (without zidane), 0-0 against italy in the quarter finals, 2-1 against croatia after the biggest enigma of the history of soccer, thuram's 2 goals in one match (he never scored after that, in more than 100 caps) and the final with goals scored on corner kicks against brazil (not the hardest thing to do, but preventing them from scoring was harder)
    barthez, laurent blanc, deschamps and even desailly and leboeuf deserve the credit for the 1998 world cup

    zidane has failed to win champions league with juventus, then he won one with real madrid, but they were the best team back then
    no matter where he played, he wasn't very influential, except maybe in 2006 in the world cup with france
    there were moments of brilliance, but they were too few and like giles said he disapeared in derby matches or important matches

    french players who should be ranked higher than zidane, henry, makelele ect are kopa, platini, fontaine, papin
    those players have proven more things in champions league and in their national leagues
    kopa, papin, and platini have won the ballon d'or, and they deserved it
    zidane only won it because france won the world cup and they had to give it to a french player, they should have given it to a defender or a goalkeeper, like in 2006, because zidane didn't have a great world cup, he even missed half of the world cup because of a red card
     
  22. Europe

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    I was on youtube watching Michael laudrups's videos and a guy had this comment:

    It looks like others think Zidane is overrated.

    Terry's not even in the very good tier?

    He was the cb on how many EPL title teams. How many times did Chelsea make it to the semis of the CL with him their? 6 out 9 times thru last year.1 cl title and 1 final loss.

    No Owen in even the very good tier? I know he was injured a lot the last 5 or 6 years, but the first 7 years of his career were great.

    I wonder what Owen goals per minute at Real were. Is there a place you can find that?

    I think he did better their than people think because I don't think he started a lot of games.
     
  23. Arend

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    http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/michael-owen/leistungsdaten/spieler_1397_2004.html
    Because Henrik Larsson, who spend most of his career with Celtic in the sub-prime SPL was a much better and more deserving player? He wasn’t even the best Swedish player of his generation, but apparently nobody cares about guys like Thomas Ravelli, Tomas Brolin, Jonas Thern or Kennet Andersson. That charts like that are nonsense, I think that goes without saying, as it is impossible to be 100% objective and in case of this chart the categories are also a bit random. Players from bigger Leagues and bigger teams will always be preferred, the same with strikers/midfielders over defenders or (at least not so much) goalies. Players from the thirties to the sixties will be overlooked. Why no Juan Schiaffino, Héctor Scarone, Uwe Seeler, Ernst Happel, Kurt Hamrin or Mario Kempes? Charts like this are only good for trolling
     
  24. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    i think that it's harder to be the best in the world during a few years like owen did than to be an average player during a long time
    etoo wasn't even the best player in his club, not even close, but he's in that chart, while owen is not

    owen during his time at real madrid had the best goals per minutes ratio in spain (better than etoo for example), atleast during the first part of the season: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/671955-owen-cansado-de-ser-suplente-en-real-madrid
     
  25. Europe

    Europe Mentor

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    Here's an interesting quote from Maradona on his great goal against England in the WC.



    Maradona made clearer sense and expressed gratitude to the English, without apparent sarcasm, for the second goal. "Thanks to England," he said, "I scored the best goal of my life, in a World Cup, a dream goal, a beautiful, precious goal, and I don't think I could have done it against any other team because they all used to knock you down."

    [....]

    Although he was to score a goal of comparable virtuosity against Belgium in the semi-finals, Maradona ascribed some of the credit for that one to the "nobility" of English players in not subjecting him to a so-called professional foul. "They are probably the noblest in the world," he said. "Don't get me wrong - they tackle hard, they're not soft, but they always go for the ball and, when they see they've no chance of getting it, then it becomes a game to them [they stick to the rules] and that is something that we South Americans do not understand."
     

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