position by position analysis

Discussion in 'NFL' started by jimmyjack, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. jimmyjack

    jimmyjack Newbie

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    do you guys know of any position by position racial analysis of the nfl?

    The followingwould be my guess, in terms of percentage of white players:

    K= 100 (there was a nigerian for the dolphins a while back, though)
    P=100
    C= 85
    QB= 80
    OT= 55
    OG= 50
    TE= 50
    WR= 20
    ILB= 20
    DT= 15
    FB= 15
    OLB= 10
    DE= 5
    S= 5
    TB=3
    CB=0
     
  2. snow

    snow Mentor

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    the Browns have a black punter, there are not more white defensive tackles than defensive ends. Id reverse those numbers, I think I can count on one hand the amount of white defensive tackles in the league. DE there is Jared Allen, Vanden Bosch, Mike Wright, Igor, Bierrman, Charleston, David Ball, Robison, Chris Long, Aaron Smith, Brett Kiesel etc, Aaron Kampman was a DE before they moved him to OLB, DT all I can think of is Kyle Williams, Chris Hoke, Chris Hovan and Kelly Gregg. Only one of those guys is under 30, Kyle Williams. Both Gregg and Hoke are 34 and Hovan is 32, Williams is 27, and I haven't seen any young guys being drafted at the position, nor have any recently stuck as udfa's that I know of.

    You can go to the rosters and find out. I would do it but don't have the time right now. Someone from the NFL probably knows, because the ratio of whites never seems to change, more white receivers, more black linemen etc. Can't find enough quality black athletes anymore to keep he same ratio? start pumping polynesians into the league.

    Edited by: snow
     
  3. DixieDestroyer

    DixieDestroyer Hall of Famer

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    Note that QB & Center require the most intelligence of most positions (sans maybe MLB). [​IMG]





    Edited by: DixieDestroyer
     
  4. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Well jimmyjack that may be close to what the NFL looks like, but this is how white I'd estimate it SHOULD look like in our 75% white, 13% black country:

    QB: 80%
    OT: 80%
    OG: 80%
    C: 85%
    TE: 80%
    WR: 65% -Split End 50%/ Flanker 70%/ Slot 75%
    HB: 60% -Powerback 70%/ scatback 50%
    FB: 80%

    DE: 70%
    DT: 70%
    OLB: 65%
    MLB: 70%
    SS: 65%
    FS: 55%
    CB: 40%

    Tommorow I'll list the small differences of strengths and weaknesses of white vs. black athletes. I believe in small disparities for the most part with a little larger disparity at CB- due to interest in pursuing playing it, a more noticeable skill difference for the position and the NFL teams trying to diversify their style. There does seem to be small differences in style of how blacks and whites play WR and scatback vs. powerback as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2011
  5. jimmyjack

    jimmyjack Newbie

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    snow: did not know about the Browns punter; point taken about DE's vs DT's.
    Dixie Destroyer: why yes, as a matter of fact, I had noted that. [​IMG]

    Tough J. Riggins: looking forward to your next post. It does indeed seem that there are generalizable differences between how the races play particular positions. It is sometimes comical to listen to media folk trip over themselves trying desperately not to talk about "playing like a black QB" The guy whose forte is dropping back, reading the defence and making decisions accordingly is just about always white; not that this means they are immobile: Fran Tarkenton, Roger Staubach, John Elway. Tim Tebow? Well, we'll see next season. He had good game today.

    White wide receivers tend to make their living on well-executed, smart route running as opposed to pure speed or jumping ability.
     
  6. Paleocon

    Paleocon Guru

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    I don't know if Derek Landri or Nick Hayden start, but they would be two more defensive tackles. I believe Mike Wright was a DT that got moved to DE in a 3-4 defense similar to Tim Bulman with Houston.
     
  7. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Just wanted to bump this thread guys. I was hoping to get multiple poster's estimates on what the NFL should look like broken down position by position. I've really been fascinated by some of the different opinions on this site about how each position should be divided up between black and white! Waiting to see some new posts (also comments on my estimate of what a fair NFL would look like!)
     
  8. snow

    snow Mentor

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    ToughJ. What would you consider Brian Westbrook? a scatback? He doesn't have elite top end speed, in fact only three rushes in his entire career over 40 yards but he
    has been able to put up over 10,000 yards from scrimmage, around 6,000 of those rushing. Hes really shifty and great hands. If you take a look at Wes Welker, he's basically does everything Westbrook does except take handoffs. The only difference is Westbrook is usually getting a running head start when he gets those little dump offs, Welker is standing still on a lot of routes which shows that he has a quicker first step, I would say Welker has great initial burst and very quick. He could've had the career Westbrook had but Ill take 3 consecutive seasons of 110+ catches and 1k which is the first.

    I think we have a TON of white kids who could develop into similar players, 5'8 to 5'11, 190 to 210 pounds, 4.5 to 4.6 speed, great agility and great hands. I don't know if you would consider that a scatback though, but there are plenty of our guys who have been screwed with elite speed like Jake SHarp etc. It seems we have plenty of bigger one cut north/south runners who get somewhat of an opportunity at halfback now but I see tons of slot receivers with great agility, they might not have as much power but they can make people miss and get the job done. Jeff Maehl has insane agility and could be a halfback, people would say hes too small but its not any more dangerous than going across the middle and getting pummeled. Eric Peterman couldve been a halfback even though he is a little tall and thin for the position. I think Chase Reynolds could be an Ahmad Bradshaw type back. So if you include those types of backs I would increase it to about 70 percent for scatbacks. Theres only a handful of speed backs in the NFL that are successful.


    I would put FS and SS at 70 percent. The NFL can't even get quality starting affletes at these positions for every NfL team, most are failed corners who have trouble taking correct angles, diagnosing plays, dont tackle and lack coordination. Some of those players I said could develop into Westbrook type guys, well some get switched to the slot, some to safety, I see quite a few excel in college when given a chance but rarely drafted. Roman Harper made the freaking pro bowl, the guy can't even cover, hes good in the box and blitzing, Kyle McCarthy could do better. Tommy Connors from Southeastern could do the same exact thing and he didn't even get a tryout.
     
  9. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    ToughJ.Riggins,

    Probably didn't get alot of response to your breakdown, because I'd say 90% of CF members agree with 90% of your evaluation at the positions.

    I agree with Snow on the FS,SS, I think those posiitions could look more like the country also, at around 70%. To me a FS is like a QB on defense, there has to be decsion making based on the entire field of play and as snow alluded to, proper angles are also a premium.

    The only other stat that comes into play is how many kids are actually playing football based on the population breakdown. In otherwords, what is the % of 75% of whites participating in football and likewise what is the % of 13% blacks participating in football? I wonder if that stat is out there?

    BTW, Is that 13% black pop. a little small? Just wondering?
     
  10. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    I pretty much agree with TJR's breakdown, except I would put the White percentage at WR and safety higher. Cornerback could easily be higher as well.

    The black percentage of the U.S. population has been stable at roughly 13 percent for a while now. It hasn't been growing because of the continuing influx of hispanics and asians, the ruination of the black family structure since the implementation of the"Great Society," the early black death rate, and the large number of black males who are in the prison system at any given time, among other factors.
     
  11. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Thanks for the comments everyone.

    1. To address Don's last paragraph: Good point, also don't forget the higher rate of black abortions than white abortions (I guess the ruining of the black family structure could have been eluding to that though).

    2. On Carolina Speed's post: I do think a slightly larger percentage of the black populous is hardcore about pursuing football at the higher levels.

    3. To address both Don and Snow: I guess I would consider Westbrook a scatback and Welker also if he was taking handoffs, although their agility is a combined X-Y/ X-Z style. I guess I should have combined the category as scatback-speedback.

    I have addressed X-Y and X-Z agility before and I think that there are a larger percentage of white tailbacks with ELITE X-Y agility- and a higher portion of black tailbacks with ELITE X-Z agility. At Split-End WR- and CB- elite speed is most important. As the Split-End WR you have to run deep fly patterns at times. As a CB, if you bite on a fake you have to have recovery speed to run down the WR.

    X-Y agility is the ability to hit top speed quickly (10 yard burst) and the ability to stop on a dime and make one sharp cut/ make the first guy miss.

    X-Z agility is more of a twist, turn, juke, jive, spin and jump cutting ability to make defenders miss in VERY tight space.

    I believe this kind of agility is becoming less effective in the NFL these days. This is with the way coordinators use the Marshall Faulk strategy to shadow the scatback and hit him early when he goes out to catch the ball or use more run blitzes- to pursue him into the backfield. Don't forget the sideline to sideline ability of NFL LBs these days. Making a quick cut- or stutter step fake one direction before cutting the other direction- and quickly getting north-south and using the angles of the field to make the most yards you can, and power to run through arm tackles- is more effective these days.

    Ideally you'd like to have a back with elite Power, speed, X-Y AND X-Z agility. The best example of this is Adrian Peterson. Jamal Charles, Chris Johnson and Danny Woodhead all have great speed, X-Y and X-Z agility with good power for their size.

    I hope this helps!

    Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  12. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Here's another fun thing to do. Rank the 12 most TALENTED RBs AT THIS POINT IN TIME (in an offense equally designed around their gifts) in the NFL. Here's my list.

    1. Jamal Charles
    2. Chris Johnson
    3. Adrian Peterson
    4. Danny Woodhead
    5. Darren McFadden
    6. Peyton Hillis
    7. Ray Rice
    8. MJD
    9. LeSean McCoy
    10. Ahmad Bradshaw
    11. DeAngelo Williams
    12. Arian Foster


    Gerhart could make the top 12 in the future if he gets enough playing time to get his efficiency going.

    Edited to add: I'll update my list if I think of anyone I forgot!
    Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  13. TwentyTwo

    TwentyTwo Master

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    Have long doubted the 13% Census Count...IMO it's closer to 20...just think it harder to get an accurate count in the hood'...but hey I lived all my life in the south...my parish(county) is only 47% white & 45% black as of 2010.

    I asked the question to my Dad..."if you were coaching football team at a HS with 50% white & 50% black student-body & try-out'swere today after school.....what would you expect to see"?? He said "he did not know"I am still trying to answer that question myself....anybody care to take a stab at it??

    I know it's been harder for us to watch SEC Football together....where manyteams resemble Grambling, Southern U. Down here most blacks seem to gravitate toward football like basketball...the semi-pro team is at least 85% black...that may have to do with the team being more inner city/urban than suburban..Ihad a few friends play; the only white RB & WR on the team.

    Where as another poster on another thread many more potentialwhite players choose Baseball,Rugby, Lacrosse, Soccer, Hockey...that hinders numbers somewhat. Still no doubt the stereo-types are there as Recruiting sites like Rivals can only find 4 (full) white WR'sout of 100?? That's absurd! I haven't bothered to count the Safeties yet...not sure if I want to....and CB's I can almost guess. I would think the NFL would be closer to 50/50 with white safties...yet Rivals gives me their latest list..and bet I won't find 10%[​IMG]

    The system is cracking a littlewith Hillis 1,000+ season + Woodhead & Nelson leading recieverSuper Bowl Preformance & Locker/Tebow being amongst the leaders in rushing QB's...but as long asthose stinkin' recruiting services arearound & College's use them; the NFL will remain nearly 70% black...this a serious uphill climb!

    Agreed about Roman Harper...Sam Bradford caught him from behind on an INT and the brutha's were giving him a hard time!

    A WR like Jeff Samardzija would easily be a starter in the NFL IMO....
     
  14. FootballDad

    FootballDad Hall of Famer

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    Hey ToughJ, I disagree on this particular perception. Looking at a cross-section of high school players at any combine or camp, and in player commitment, I would rate white players as more "hardcore" than their black counterparts.


    It's simply that for a white player to get noticed, no matter how exceptional they are, has to go to extreme measures of self-promotion and networking, etc. Black kids hardly need to lift a finger, as the recruiters will come to them and the "recruiting services" will do all of the promotion for them. Many are even able to attend expensive camps and combines on "hardship scholarships" that a white player would never even be considered for, regardless of how poor they are.

    While the often "lazy" black affletes just have to read and file the recruiting letters, the white kids have to scrape and fight, most often having to spend big $ to be a "walk on" at a D1 school. So no, black kids are not more hardcore or dedicated, they just have a far easier AA path, and as you know and have often documented, the "services" are our primary enemy, not the DWFs.
     
  15. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    FootballDad, I wasn't talking about blacks being more "dedicated" out of those who play. There are more whites these days who put in extra film study and play with a big chip on their shoulder due to the caste system. I'd say most white football players seem to know the deck is stacked against them on making the NFL. I meant to imply that their is a slightly larger percentage than 13% black players who are TRYING OUT for H.S football teams across the whole nation. As Twenty Two said, this could be due to white high schoolers picking sports that treat them better and don't have a caste system or being more driven to become accomplished academically. You are spot on about the "recruiting" services.

    Looking at basketball, that is one sport where I WOULD say that there is a higher black U.S interest level in the sport with or without a caste system. With Euro players things should balance out some. My best guess is the NBA should be 50-55% white. I'd put the FAIR black NBA percentage at about 35-40%. The white American percentage should probably be SLIGHTLY lower than the OVERALL black percentage IMO. BTW, there should be a bit more Asians and Hispanics in the NBA as well.

    The NFL should be about 70% white overall if it were fair IMO and probably 25% black. (I count a player who is 1/8 black or more as black- and a player who is MORE THAN half white, but not black or dark Polynesian as white).
    Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  16. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    Footballdad and ToughJ.

    Lets make sure we're talking apples to apples. What I was saying is are there more blacks playing football as a % vs. whites, not necessarily whose more hardcore. I agree with FBD that at the higher levels whites are as hardcore, but I think there are more blacks playing as % vs. whites. As I've said before, in my experience white playerswill get noticed and as FBD says, they have to go above and beyond any of his black competition, ON THE FIELD AND IN THE CLASSROOM, there can be no flaws period, because most of these coaches at combines and camps in my area are becoming darker and darker.

    If a white player really performs in the measureables he will be noticed and here lies the difference. Theres alot of other mediocrity with black players, but they'll get a look more often if lets say for example they pass the so-called eye test. But again its been my experience and this alludes to my original point, I see more blacks at the combines and camps I attend, making itseem liketheres more of a % of blacks participating.

    This opens up a whole other issue for me, if most blacks are poorer than whites, how in the h3@# are they able to afford to go to all these combines and camps? I consider myself middle class, and I can only afford so much. I have to conclude FBD has a point, in that, they're getting help somewhere, hardship scholarships or whatever!
     
  17. Carolina Speed

    Carolina Speed Master

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    Don, I respect you and the information on the 13% black pop., but I agree with TwentyTwo, I doubt its that low. For if its that low and considering all other information you provided, ruination of family structure, early black death,blacks in prison, murder rate, abortion(TJR), etc. All these things considered, how can it be possible, that blacks dominate (numbers wise)in football & basketballat the rate they do. I understand the CS, but is it really that bad considering all these stats? Where do they come from? Does the answer notlie elsewhere? I don't know. It just seems the pool has to be larger than 13%!
    Think about it: and someone smarter than me can weigh in, but it seems incredible to me that so many blacks make it in the NFL, NBA, etc., against so many odds,out of such a small pool?
     
  18. Deadlift

    Deadlift Hall of Famer

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    In the NBA, there is a VERY limited number of roster spots, so, in fact, most blacks AREN'T making the NBA.

    As for the blacks that are in the NBA, most of them are there simply because of pure AA. Most of the blacks in today's NBA are nothing-special no names that only want to chuck shots..

    As for how basketball players are "built" -- most blacks are weak in that area too. I think that's one reason why the NBA has lost popularity.. people aren't buying into them as "Supermen" anymore.
     
  19. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

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    Not really. You figure there are a total of 40 million blacks in this country considering they make up about 13 percent of the US population. In that case this country has roughly 20 million black males. Take the ones from high school and you still have at least several million. That's several million options for recruiters and colleges to go after. All the blacks have to do is show some "potential."
     
  20. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    The population of Canada is only about 35 million, yet Canadians still provide a majority of NHL players, who now arecompeting against not only U.S. players but a large pool of European players (including Russians).

    Hockey of course is much more of a meritocracy, given that it's White players from the different countries competing against each other. The U.S.'s ratio of blacks in football and basketball is highly skewed because of an extreme form of affirmative action practiced at various levels and reinforced by constant media stereotyping. But roughly 20 million black males is more than enough of a pool to fill about 1,000 NFL roster spots and several hundred NBA roster spots, even though the pool is weakening because of the dysfunctions among blacks and what's left of the black family structure, dysfunctions that are getting noticeably worse. Edited by: Don Wassall
     
  21. snow

    snow Mentor

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    If you put Woodhead and Charles in the SAME offense its 1a and 1b, 4 is kind of low.


    1a Jamaal Charles
    1b Danny Woodhead
    2. Peyton Hillis
    3. Maurice Jones-Drew (in a situation like Hillis)
    4. Ray Rice
    5. Chris Johnson
    6a LeGarret Blount (hate to say it but he really was impressive, needs to improve receiving ability)
    6b Chris Ivory (if he could stay healthy he would be great)
    7. Ahmad Bradshaw
    8. Matt Forte (stuck in a similar situation as Hillis for career)
    9. Adrian Peterson (has declined every year since being annointed a superstar, didn't impress when they had a passing attack)
    10. LeSean McCoy
    11. Darren McFadden
    12. Arian Foster



    I put Arian Foster so low despite his stats, he played under Kubiak last year, who mastered the zone blocking concept under Shanahan plus he has Andre Johnson and Walter with a great qb for defenses to fear. Steven Jackson would be higher but he had kind of a down year, but has produced on some bad teams, hopefully its age catching up with him and not the scheme...because their coordinator is coming to the Browns.

    Chris Johnson is a little overrated imo. Id drop him a little lower. MJD should be higher, dude has consistently produced in a crappy offense with no passing attack, he has kind of been in the same situation as Hillis, THE receiving game. Same thing with Matt Forte for a while, they have no offensive weapons because Lovie Smith just doesn't give white guys a chance.
     
  22. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    The difficult situation for Forte has some truth to it. He averaged 4.5 YPC last year for the Bears and their blocking is HORRIBLE- although 2 years ago he had a lesser year if I'm not mistaken. I originally included Forte as my 12th back, but then remembered how good DeAngelo Williams was three years ago when he broke Jim Brown's 7- 30 yard rushes in a season record. Then Chris Johnson had 10, I believe, two years ago. DW still had a nice season two years ago, but then battled injuries last year.

    Chris Johnson really impresses me by how fast he can shoot into a small hole like a cannon, although Woodhead's 10 yard burst is extemely close to Johnson's. It helps CJ and MJD to have a QB that can scramble a bit b/c defenses have to shadow the QB and it spreads out the D a bit to create holes for quick shifty backs to capitalize on.

    Minnesota's blocking hasn't been as good for Peterson the last couple years and Favre really showed he was done last season battling injuries and lack of consistency all year. Peterson still averaged 4.6 YPC.

    McFadden averaged 5.2 YPC last year for a lousy Oakland team. Looking back at McFadden's highlights he's basically equally effective to Hillis with a different style.

    LeGarrette Blount was impressive for a rookie, I said as such yesterday in the Lemaitre thread about how- even with 4.72 speed- a tailback can occasionally be effective. The cutoff, where a tailback normally shows other kinds of lack of explosiveness to where he can't cut it in the NFL, seems to be about 4.8- although you'd covet sub 4.65 speed if you can get it. I credit JC's analogy- Having 4.4 speed is like icing on a cake for a tailback. You can get a great cake without icing and you can get a great tailback without 4.4 speed (although it is nice to have).

    Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  23. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Updated List:

    1. Jamal Charles
    2. Chris Johnson
    3. Adrian Peterson
    4. Danny Woodhead
    5a. Darren McFadden
    5b. Peyton Hillis
    6. Ray Rice
    7. MJD
    8. LeSean McCoy
    9. Ahmad Bradshaw
    10. Arian Foster
    11. DeAngelo Williams
    12. Michael Turner
    13. Matt Forte
    14. LeGarrette Blount
    15a. Frank Gore (coming off injury)
    15b. Steven Jackson (age and mileage catching up with him)
     

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