Jamaican Sprinting.

Discussion in 'Track & Field' started by Jamstar, May 12, 2011.

  1. the argie

    the argie Guru

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    Jamstar, let me ask you a question.

    There is a Jamaican athlete who I feel some sympathy but I get the feeling that he not just explodes. I mean aboutLerone Clarke. I believehe's gotthe physical conditions to be among the best, but fails to take off. Why?
     
  2. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    While its true that Lerone reps Jamaica, he does not live or train in Jamaica so I dont know much about his personal situations but I do agree he has what it takes to get down to the 9.8 range.

    Some folks here in Jamaica think that Lerone is too small to get to that range though, he is about 5.5 and slightly built so he cant be a sprinter with huge strides like Bolt or a power sprinter like Carter.

    My take on it is that he can get there by using a Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pyrce race plan, blow them away at the start, transition to top speed and stay relax to the tape.
     
  3. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    To put things into perspective from the tiny island of Jamaica. So far this summer, there have been 15 sprinters go sub 10 and 7 of them are from Jamaica. That is almost half and the women sprinters are no different. I won't say anything else other than what are the odds of this happening. Imagine any small country dominating the world in the sprints. I know they have talent there but there is something just not right.

    I'm sorry jamstar but I don't buy it. I just know that just like Mullings, alot of other have or are cheating. I hope for your sake that I'm wrong. It's good to have you here. You know your athletics. On a side note, I think Bolt will not be the the fastest at nationals. My pick is Yohan Blake. He is young, fit and should handle the rounds well.I see an upset with Bolt finishing 2nd. Call me crazy but alot of Jamaican Sprinters want to be the first to beat him.Edited by: white lightning
     
  4. trackster

    trackster Mentor

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    On the other hand, though, small populations can produce amazing statistical flukes. I mean, look at the cross country record of Fayetteville-Manlius, or the track record of the school where that girl (Wiessenbach) who just smoked a 2:02 800 came from. Little tiny schools, where none of the students would be genetically related, but they absolutely produce on a national level. Will, desire, hard work, and, let's face it, obsession matter. I think there's a lot of factors involved here. Sure, drugs are included, but I wouldn't say they're the only factor.
     
  5. foobar75

    foobar75 Master

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    I would agree with what trackster is saying. There are quite a few examples of small and/or poor countries that have nothing much to speak of, but they are good at one specific thing, at a world-class level. This can be due things like tradition, simple genetics, and all the reasons trackster mentions.

    Look at Iceland, for instance. A tiny country of 300,000 people has produced 8 World's Strongest Man champions, more than any other, including the US. You would think the US with its huge population would dominate the field here.

    Or Switzerland/Austria, small European countries who have historically dominated alpine-skiing because their children over there start skiing as soon as they can walk.

    In terms of track, there is Ethiopea and Kenya, whose runners pretty much own the distances from 3000m up, and have even competed well in the 800m and 1500m. And that's all they have, no other representation in any other track discipline.

    So, it's possible that Jamaica just produces a lot of top sprinters, the same way those other countries produce their top athletes in those respective sports from a relatively small population.Edited by: foobar75
     
  6. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Ok then what about a country like Mexico. They worship Soccer(Football) but have never even been to a World Cup Finals. They are alot bigger country than Jamaica. Even Japan (Similar Size People) has gone deeper into the tournament if I rememeber right.

    Kenya and Ethiopia dominate the long distance races due to living in the high mountain villages. They are also very poor so everyone runs there. It is a way of life and also of survival. I believe tha when athletes take E.P.O., it's to try and compete with people with the huge lungs that live in the mountain villages of the world. More distance runners should train in this climates. Regardless I will agree that people born in these high altitude places, have a slight advantage. Their lungs are huge and that combined with their small stature make them good at distance running. Also running is a way out of a poor village. Just like in boxing, the people that are stuggling will find a way out through sports. I do believe whites can compete. There are many more Craig Mottram and Paula Radcliffe types out there.

    Just 11years ago, Jamaica didn't have any gold medalists. Their fastest male sprinters ran above 10 seconds. Now within a decade they dominate the world. They have 7 of the 10 fastest times in the world this year! I don't buy it. You can but where there is smoke, there is fire. We have already seen a few of their sprinters busted in the last couple of years. Many more will come in the future i.m.o. One last point. I'm not saying that Jamaica doesn't have sprinters that could be good naturally. I just know there is more going on than that and that is sad. Just like in Baseball, P.E.D. Use can ruin a sport. The East Germans were caught. Countless Americans have been caught. It's about time that more or the Jamaicans get caught.

    For the Jamaicans that do it the right way(natural), I applaud them. It's not always easy to do the right thing. Edited by: white lightning
     
  7. trackster

    trackster Mentor

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    Look, I'm not saying you're wrong to suspect steroids. I mean, watching some of these guys--like Blake the other day, or Powell any day--I can't imagine why they aren't more embarrassed to be seen, looking the way they do (honestly, of all the runners in the world, the ones with the most ludicrously roided physiques are hurdler David Oliver and sprinter Harry Aikines Aryeetey, but I digress). They remind me of back when Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, and co. used to flaunt their huge arms in short-sleeved baseball uniforms. No baseball player would be caught dead with biceps like that now. It's hard to believe the way Powell, etc, fearlessly flaunt their physiques--which bear no resemblance at all to the physiques of Don Quarrie, Lennox Miller, Arthur Wint, and the other Jamaican runners of the pre-roid era. What they are doing is shameful, especially when you compare them to an undeveloped toothpick like LeMaitre. All I was saying earlier is that there are other factors as well.

    I'm happy that LeMaitre is so self-evidently clean. Of course, I don't think he can ever take the gold against roiders, but he must scare the bejeezus out of them. They must look at that kid and his skinny underdeveloped frame and, knowing that with all the chemistry going into their bodies, they can just barely beat him, and they must surely know what would happen if LeMaitre ever took even one injection. One injection, and he'd blow past them. They know it.
     
  8. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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  9. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Even in 2000, which was an Olympic Year, not one Jamaican went sub 10 in the 100. This was when they started to make their move though. Once you get to about 2005 and beyond, you will see major changes. All I'm saying is that in a decade, they have went from nowhere to dominating the sprints. It's alot like some other countries who I mentioned above. To now suspect anything from a smaller country who has improved night and day in only 10 years would be crazy.
    I just want to see the athletes that do it the right way have a chance to medal. Look at natural bodybuilding contests. Now compare them to pro bodybuilding contests. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see steroid use. PED use has really hurt all sports. I hope WADA continues the good fight so the clean sprinters of the world have a chance to continue to do what they love!Edited by: white lightning
     
  10. jayo1980

    jayo1980 Newbie

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    Firstly afew points want to make, to jamstar , if still around


    all drug programmes in america and now carribean were never nessary to be
    state organized
    always have been run by a select few where money is king using the massive health services of the u.s
    and biotechnology firms ,starting with basic steroids off doctors up to more
    recently withdesigner ones from balco.




    yes levels of interest and participation will lead to more world class athletes
    and the younger they start the better and , as see with many top sportspeople their career is
    nearly planned out for them before they are born .
    some sports if start to late then never have a chance of reaching world class
    level , like gymnastics ,etc,so important .bodies will develope with needs of
    particular sport to varying degrees
    obviously if everybody wants to only do sport then other aspects of society will lack , so be it .






    but this only explains the strength and depth , more number of athletes running in the 10.30-10.00 range for any particular nation 4 each generation .
    and if lucky one or two running in 9.90 ,s and with everything being perfect maybe gettin into the 9.80,s occasionally by natural means .
    even dont know about whether previously some of these times are aided by traditional
    peds or not , alot are .
    ANYway this is how use to be .


    when did this start to change , with breaking 10 seconds became so frequent
    and in all sorts of conditions ,
    just look at statistics to see where it changed , yes around 2004 /2005
    f**k remember 2004 when only one person broke 10 seconds with new starting rules and the testing ,
    had stopped most of steroid and other old age peds use .
    w.r wasnt to far fetched and decreaseing at very slow rate ,
    and at that the sprinters breaking 9.80s were obviously using steroids
    you knew where logical cut of for fastest times would be .




    first theyre was powell , then there was gay , then a very unnatural
    body type for sprinter in bolt , and now the list is getting longer and longer
    all almost among the carribean sprinters or sprinters based in us colleges .
    f**k have 4 sub ten guys for trinidad and tobago at moment.
    nobody has mentioned this



    so stop pandering to jamstar and excuses ,
    it is becoming so blindly obvious if follow track and know anything
    about human physiology what is happening .
    he is obviously blinded by there greatness , or just another charlie francis
    lookin for next great afflette

    Edited by: jayo1980
     
  11. jayo1980

    jayo1980 Newbie

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    the times and the frequency ran and the number of athletes running them
    can only be explained by some sort of new ped , circa 2004/2005 with emergence of
    powell.

    previously how many of these athletes wud not have made it , maybe
    get in 10.10s or lower then burn out and rarely run that fast again ,
    this is what previously happened to majority ,seen it time and time again .but not nowadays.










    Edited by: jayo1980
     
  12. jayo1980

    jayo1980 Newbie

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    what it is and how works can only guess but i wud have too say most probably
    enhances number and type of f.t.f (fast twitch fibres).
    dont think is designer steroid , as that was been done and know
    times and the frequencies that are produced ,but easily invovled in the mix .
    the medical field knows alot of genes involved in f.t.f ,
    genetic doping , simple once off administration of virus delivering
    certain genetic material , and never have to worry about failing test .
    genetic therapy is been used for many things with alot of success to date



    next why are the athletes mainly carribean or from U.S colleges and black ,
    as this unfortunatly is where most of new young sprinters running in low 10,s are coming from nowadays.
    and where the select few with technology and know how will offer such enhancement to performance , obviously from one of many biotech firms in u.s
    and as know not many white sprinters running in the low 10's or even top levels at that for all of reasons discussed before
    , to be approached or in the right circles to avail of these methods .
    i dont have problem with ped use but do with the dishonesty and bare face lying , as long as out in open dont care
    and fact so far mainly certain athletes have availed of it , leading to again increasing false impression ofsuperior afflete when clearly not the case .





    And as for WADA cant do anything , as some new type of ped ,
    or mite never be able to .

    Nor do iaaf care as compared to alot of other events where results have started
    to stagnate naturally due to no major advances in training ,etc
    the shorter sprints are masively progressive and
    never been as popular and with such high levels of interest in them, never been better for iaaf.
    and as for ped use destroying sport ,i dont see it . as long as not unhealthy which dont think is, .
    people dont care and media and organisers only interested in the money that can be made.




    Edited by: jayo1980
     
  13. albinosprint

    albinosprint Mentor

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    Yes Jamaica has always produced good sprinters. when you are a country of less then 3 million and you have 2 or 3 sprinters in the top 25 in the world its amazing. what we are see right now is just craziness. in 10 years they have had a 133% increase in number of top level sprinters. not to mention almost everyone running under 10 and a few running video game times.
     
  14. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    First of all its simply not true that Jamaica does do not have a history in sprinting.

    Donovan Bailey was an olympic gold medallist and world record holder at 9.84, he was born in Jamaica and left as a teenager.

    Donald Quarrie is a global gold medalist and was running 10.05 when the world record was 9.96.

    Raymond Stewart made the Olympic final as a high schooler and was running 9.96 when the world record was 9.86.

    There are many other guys too who were either close to or held world records in sprint events but naming them all would take too long.

    The only thing that has changed is the frequency in which these sprinters emerge and that is due to improving coaching levels at the junior level (the world youth games is in a month and you will see this on display), improve facilities and most importantly giving athletes that could not get a scholarship to go to an American college the opportunity to continue their careers.


    A guy like Powell would have never gotten a scholarship and would have quit the sport right after high school, instead he is give the opportunity to continue training locally after high school and becomes world record holder.


    Back in the day when Don Q was tearing it up there were alot of guys that were just as talented as he was sitting home because they never got a college scholarship.


    As for the ratio of population to sub 10 sprinters, I will admitt it seems odd but as of right now track is a fringe sport and in fringe sports these things happen.

    I'm sure that if the best talents in the USA were pushed mainly to track on the level that it happens in Jamaica they would wipe the floor with us, just over the last couple years I have seen 3 guys with unbelievable talent pushed away from track and into football.

    Btw if check you will see that Jamaica does not even have the best ratio among caribbean countries that distinction belongs to Trinidad and Tobago.
     
  15. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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  16. albinosprint

    albinosprint Mentor

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    who said that?

    we all acknowledge that Jamaicans have a history in sprinting. hell,
    even Ben Johnson was Jamaican. all I'm saying is the number of, and also the size of these guy just make it all highly suspect. look how many guys have broken 9.80 and where caught cheating. also take into consideration the time between sub 9.8 runs. now all of a sudden Jamaicas pumping out sub 9.8 sprinters like its going out of style.
     
  17. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    But albino that was what some of the post were insinuating, so I wanted to get that out of the way pretty quickly and establish Jamaica's sprinting heritage.

    Btw did you read the article, when your finished reading I have another article I would like you to read that chronicles the improvement of coaching/facilities in Jamaica and the effect it had on Jamaica sprintin over the last decade.
     
  18. Liverlips

    Liverlips Hall of Famer

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    Interesting thread. I don't follow sprinting very closely but this thread has me thinking.

    I do follow boxing and Jamaica has produced a good amount of very good boxers for such a small island.
     
  19. alln2

    alln2 Guru

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    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,571891-2,00.html
    Johnson was born on the Caribbean island. As a child, he trained on
    the same grass track at the Technical University in the Jamaican
    capital of Kingston where Bolt and Powell would later begin their
    careers. Perhaps Jamaica is the birthplace of the next Olympic champion.


    Does he believe in Gay, Powell, Bolt?


    Johnson laughs. "You're considered innocent until you test
    positive," he says, "but you can't run in less than 9.80 seconds
    without the right drugs. It's impossible
    ." He should know, he says. "I
    was there."Everyone else was doing it, says Johnson, but he was the one who was
    caught. He also has a conspiracy theory, but it bears no resemblance to
    Gatlin's. Johnson doesn't claim that he never doped. In fact, he says,
    "I took all kinds of steroids."


    Seems like the Jamaicans have a history in sprinting doping as well. And what a history it is.
    The first sub 9.80 was a super-roided Jamaican, Ben Johnson.
    We can be absolutely sure that all the new sub 9.80 Jamaicans are as doped as the first one.
     
  20. Liverlips

    Liverlips Hall of Famer

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    If the very best athletes in Jamaica are all concentrating on one sport - sprinting - then it could account for much of its recent dominance in the sprints.

    In sheer numbers there are probably more white kids who play soccer in the U.S. than in England. Yet nobody doubts that white English players would defeat the best white American players in soccer.

    But the sport of track as a whole has been rife with drugs since at least the 70s. That factor cannot be overlooked as well.
     
  21. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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  22. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    What kind of messed up thinking is that, Ben Johnson doped so all Jamaicans that follow him are dopers.



    Ben also said that inorder to get to the top tier you have to dope and right now CL is at or near the top tier so if you are going to quote him and endorse his theories you have to apply it to everybody.


    Btw its clear that Ben has paranoia issues.
     
  23. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Let's be serious Jamstar. Look at Christohpe and then look at Ben Johnson. Hell look at Christohpe and then look at Powell or Blake and even Bolt. One guy is skinny and the other guys live in the weight room.
     
  24. alln2

    alln2 Guru

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    Yeah the Jamaicans are very dedicated to doping, so they dominate sprinting now.

    Without all these doped negroes, LeMaitre would be the best now in 100m.
    Cant have that now can we, the marxists have to maintain the myth of negro athletic supremacy.
     
  25. alln2

    alln2 Guru

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    Carl Lewis also has paranoia issues? Hahaha. What a joke you are.
    "When people ask me about Bolt I say he could be the greatest athlete
    of all-time. But for someone to run 10.03 one year and 9.69 the next,
    if you don't question that in a sport that has the reputation it has
    right now, you're a fool. Period."Â￾ Carl Lewis

    Blake is a doper, Mullings is a doper.
    There are two kinds of Jamaican sprinters: those who have been caught doped, and those who havent yet been caught doped.
     

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