Hall of Fame candidates

Discussion in 'NFL' started by Don Wassall, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. Kaptain

    Kaptain Master

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    Is this a serious question? We've named people over and over again in the past. How about just update us on what is on TV instead of asking stupid trolling questions? Look at the old posts.

    Since you asked I can recall you defending the pick of Curly Culp over Mick Tinklehoff because supposedly Culp completely outplayed Tinklehoff in the superbowl. Culp had all of 2 tackles in that SB and was quite often not lined up against Tinklehoff anyway. But because some NFL special show claimed Tinklehoff (the offensive lineman of the year in 69) was outplayed in your mind it was all true. Culp in and Tinklehoff out. Nevermind that Tinklehoff is still considered the best center of his long era. In fact here you go from wiki:

    "After graduating from Nebraska, Tingelhoff entered the 1962 NFL Draft but was not drafted and instead signed with the Minnesota Vikings as a free agent in 1962. He became their starting center during his rookie season and held that spot until he retired in 1978. He was an AP First Team All-Pro selection for the first of five times in 1964 and also began a streak of six straight Pro Bowl appearances (1964–1969) that season. In 1967, he was named First Team All-Pro by Newspaper Enterprise Association and UPI and Second Team All-Pro by the AP. In 1969, he was named the NFL's Top Offensive Lineman of the Year by the 1,000-Yard Club in Columbus, Ohio.[SUP][2][/SUP] In 1970, he was named First Team All-Pro by both the PFWA and Pro Football Weekly. He was also named Second Team All-Pro by Newspaper Enterprise Association. He was named First Team All-NFC for that season by the AP.Tingelhoff was one of 10 players to have played in all four Vikings Super Bowl appearances in the 1970s, and is generally considered the best center of his era. At the moment of his retirement he had started in the 2nd most consecutive games (240 games) in NFL history behind teammate Jim Marshall (270). He was inducted into the Vikings Ring of Honor in 2001 and has had his #53 retired by the franchise. He is also a member of the Nebraska Football Hall of Fame but, surprisingly, has not yet been inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame."
     
  2. sport historian

    sport historian Master

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    And I've discussed the HOF over and over on the Forum.

    Speaking of stupid, the above poster whined about Paul Krause being kept out of the HOF, when in fact, Krause has been in the Hall since 1998.
     
  3. Wes Woodhead

    Wes Woodhead Mentor

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    Better be careful Kaptin. Wouldnt want the thread to get shut down. The special protected one must not be questioned, or disrespected.
     
  4. Kaptain

    Kaptain Master

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    Wow, what a memory. You would think you would remember other things in support of white athletes but you're just a long time troll. Of course you were at the game (LOL) when Paul Krause in your words dodged a tackle giving the other team a gift TD in a playoff game because he was such a pussy. And, of course, you supported him not being in the top 100 list and firmly supported the 2nd place all time interception king who happens to be black. Not the first place guy though huh?

    You were the idiot who also said Krause was gifted the title because the black defensive backs on the opposing team stepped aside to give it to him. Yah\, right. Never mind that he picked off another one later in the game to break the record by two.

    So who is stupid when it comes to Paul Krause? Me, because I mis-spoke or you because you unfairly trashed his entire career?

    Why should the thread be shut down. This poster continually picks fights. Everyone is tired of his garbage and constantly trying to attack bigunreal and others. Keep it open Don and let the crowd at him. He has as much support as he has credibility.

    Have a nice day Mr. TV guide.
     
  5. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    If Derrick Brooks made it in, John Lynch should have made it in this year as well. Brooks was on air and said Lynch will get in though

    yeah I don't understand the constant downgrading of White athletes on a site to support White athletes.

    All the full length games I have Krause isnt afraid to stick his nose in and make a tackle, even against CSONKA for christ's sake. But I get the theme, Whites can never be number 1 at a position, always number 2. Apparently there is always some black who is better. Except maybe qb, or is there some reason Moon should be at the top, or Doug Williams for his 4 td Superbowl and him taking the Bucs to the playoffs for the first time back in the 70's (yes, black players played qb in the 70's and don't believe Moon wasn't as big of a victim as people make him out to be). Williams was a first round pick at number 17 in 1978, completed 37 percent of his passes and got to start the next year
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  6. Kaptain

    Kaptain Master

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    No way, sports historian had sideline season tickets and he says that Derrick Brooks was a harder hitter and Lynch was terrible in coverage only benefitting from Warren Sapp and Brooks awesome affleticism. He was at the games.
     
  7. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    hah
    here is some more footage that I want to put in another thread but thought it was worth mentioning.

    [video=youtube;AO8LxeSwMfg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AO8LxeSwMfg#t=87[/video]

    look at the speed and agility of Taylor in that video, and it goes on to say Brown wasn't the fastest or the strongest, but hes the "best" because they fed him the ball more than any other back in the league. For a guy that came up short in big games, don't see how he is number 1 and Taylor at number 2 as well as Krause at number 2. Ball hogs at rb don't tend to win, ask OJ Simpson or Adrian Peterson, or even MJD, Chris Johnson, Eric Dickerson (fumbling problem worse than Brown), as far as Dickerson, not sure if approve of him in the hall of fame when he fumbled double digits like 4 different years (as high as 14), his prime years that ppl remember for. how many complete seasons without double digit fumbles? 1? Thats like putting a qb in the hall with a bunch of interceptions. 96 tds 78 fumbles. Favre gets knoked for being prone to throwing interceptons, 508 tds, 336 interceptions. Magnify Dickerson's td to int ratio by something similar you get 384 tds, 312 fumbles.


    check out the run before that, Tom Moore, I think had he been on another team for most of his career he would have had multiple 1k seasons.

    as far as Lynch, what hurts him is what doesn't show up in the stat sheet, balls that he dislodged from big hits, tackles can be shady stats as well, the stats aren't official for them, teams break down their players stats and they often differ from what is recorded on places like espn etc. A case was Scott Shanle, whose own team looked at the film and had him closer to 150 tackles when his stats weren't even closer to that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  8. TwentyTwo

    TwentyTwo Master

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    John Lynch was a 9 Time Pro Bowler...NINE! With a Super Bowl Ring! Lynch made the "Top 10 Most Feared Tacklers of All Time" by NFL Network! Ask Barry Sanders WHO hit him the Hardest during his career?? #47 was one of my favorite DB's of all time!

    Hall of Fame for John Lynch...NO-BRAINER!

    Will never forget his colossal hit on Jerome "The Bus Bettis" in college! He folded him up like a tent! In college even Bill Walsh compared him to Ronnie Lott!

    Glad he did not play ML Baseball or stay wasting away as a back-up QB!
     
  9. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    The Vikings had undersized D-Linemen and their predominately Black line was manhandled in all of their losses and came up with no big plays. When a back the size of Csonka gets a full head of steam and gets into the secondary he will make the tacklers look like bowling pins because of physics. So the lasting memories of fans and critics will be of Krause getting abused by Csonka. But to begin the play Eller and Page probably were blown off the line and Larsen and Marshall were shoved aside on the inside but the camera follows the ball.
     
  10. Upside

    Upside Mentor

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    Here's a handfull of recently retired defensive players and I was just wondering you guys thoughts on whether or not they are Hall of Fame worthy...

    Aaron Kampman - 2x All Pro, 2x Pro Bowl, 58 sacks, 12 FF, 500 tackles. **10 years pro.
    Aaron Schobel - 2x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, 78 Sacks, 3 INT, 19 FF, 8 FR, 500 TKL. ** 9 years pro.
    Aaron Smith - 1x Pro Bowl, 2x Superbowls, 44 Sacks, 7 FF, 9 FR, 450 TKL.
    Pat Kerney - 2x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro, 82.5 Sacks, 3 INT, 20 FF, 11 FR, 450 TKL. **11 years pro.
    Zach Thomas - 8x Pro Bowl, 7x All Pro, 1700 TKL, 20.5 Sacks, 17 INT, 17 FF, 8 FR.
    Keith Brooking - 5x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro, 1400 TKL, 22 Sacks, 13 INT, 9 FF, 10 FR.
    Bill Romanowski - 2x Pro Bowl, 4x Super Bowl, 1100 TKL, 39.5 Sacks, 18 INT, 11 FF, 14 FR.
    Mike Vrabel - 1x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, 3x Super Bowl, 750 TKL, 57 Sacks, 11 INT, 20 FF, 8 FR, 11 TDs.
    Tedy Bruschi - 1x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro, 1100 TKL, 30.5 Sacks, 12 INT, 18 FF, 7 FR.
    John Lynch - 9x Pro Bowl, 4x All Pro, 1x Super Bowl, 1000 TKL, 26 INT, 13 Sacks, 16 FF, 8 FR.
    Kurt Schulz - 30 INT, 5 FF, 4 FR, 450 TKL. **10 years pro (served a 3 year apprenticeship, so really 7 yp).
     
  11. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    Given the bias toward black players in the Hall voting, Lynch is the only one who is likely to get in. Brooking has a chance, but likely near the end of his eligibility if at all. Thomas is 50-50. Kampman was a top DE for several years but is hurt by the long racial apprenticeship he had to endure, and then severe knee injuries when he was still a dominant pass rusher. Kearney has an outside chance.

    Schobel and Vrabel were very solid and consistent over a number of seasons, but that's not good enough these days. Romanowski is hated because he was very aggressive in responding to racist black aggression towards him. Smith was unheralded until the very end of his career, while Schulz has no chance as he wasn't a star safety.

    Bruschi will most likely make it, but he's viewed much more as a Mexican than a White player.
     
  12. Woody

    Woody Guru

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    Zach Thomas should get in. Lynch, Bruschi, Aaron Smith, and Brooking have a shot. I put the chances for anyone else at around zero.
     
  13. Average American

    Average American Mentor

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    Lynch is a good call. His Pro Bowl resume' is impressive (& probably Hall of Fame caliber) by itself. But I think voters, remembering an intangible like how hard Lynch could hit, is the deal-breaker in Lynch's favor. Obviously hit-impact doesn't show in a stat line, but like u said.. players remember it,.. fans remember it, and hopefully fair-minded voters will too.

    Lynch reminded me of Chuck Cecil (remember him?), who I think preceded Lynch by a couple seasons. I remember S.I. writing a hand-wringing article about how Cecil was in their words, 'viciously', wrecking guys in the early 90s (during his Packer & Cardinal years). Lynch & Cecil just laid guys out.
     
  14. jaxvid

    jaxvid Hall of Famer

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    C'mon ease up guys. I have had my differences with sports historian over the years as well but he is a knowledgeable guy with interesting information. He might not buy into the CF concept all the way but he's not hostile. It's good to have a few different viewpoints. We need something to argue about to keep it interesting anyway.
     
  15. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    not hostile, just passive aggressive and stubborn, so i see why you like him ;). Im all for keeping things interesting but have an argument to back it up besides saying "I was there" or "the footage you have doesn't do it justice" as if memory from 40 years ago plus constant watching of NFL Network and other programs during that time span which can change your perception whether you realize it or not can do it justice. Nor is it interesting when someone who acts like draws and traps are the same as toss, sweeps, and other plays designed to get players in space even off tackle. Yes they are designed to get a chunk of yardage, but their main intent is to gain exactly that, a chunk of yardage, they aren't designed to gain huge chunks, chain moving plays in theory. Plays designed to go outside the tackle allow for more improvisation because there is often more open field than anything between the tackles.

    Its one thing to look strong and a more of a bruising runner on those sweeps knocking over dbs (which a backup db put in last minute against the Browns said he was afraid of Jim Brown at first saying he didn't want to be the first one to tackle him and then saying once he did he realized it wasn't that bad) vs going more up the middle against linebackers like Sam Huff who said when Taylor hits you it stings.

    Case in point, looking at Gerhart's footage from college, it was hard to evaluate exactly how well he would do in the pros, I knew he had a role and saw flashes, lots of stuff in bw the tackles, he was criticized for not having lots of big plays etc (which probably gave scouts/teams serious doubts like how his game would translate), same thing happening to Gaffney now saying he only had like 9 or 10 20+ yard plays last season, but then Gerhart comes into the NFL, runs more of a variety of running plays and has a ton of 20+ runs when he has barely touched the ball. He looks so much better than he did in college as far as skillset, you get to see more of the full package, more than just the occasional play. But, I can't blame Stanford, it has worked for them, and they keep winning games, and Green Bay won games, and lots of championships, and Taylor got to show flashes of his elite skillset (just like Gerhart got to show flashes of his in college), just as not as much as Brown (who also had way more carries to showcase his skillset), whose team didn't win as much, less championships. All 3 guys excelled in the system for what they were asked to do and Ill take winning over flash any day. Of course there are chances to showcase flash on these types of plays every once in a while, the notorious Riggins Superbowl run was designed to get a yard or two. Just not as much compared to running the full package. And yes Taylor got to run stuff to the outside like the famous sweep, just not as much as people would have you believe. Reading up on him and watching what I have, he was used more for the inside stuff. Hornug ran more sweeps and to the outside, and it worked because there were wrinkles where it would look like he was running to the outside and he could throw a pass which he was better at than Taylor.

    Personally, I think White backs are better at running in between the tackles for a power type running offense, but somewhere along the line, the thinking became that is all they can do even though they show they can excel on other plays when given the chance, its just become caste think to see a White rb and think downhill runner, good at following blocks, won't dance around looking for something that isn't there, will hit the hole and get the most out of it, basically straight ahead guys, but poor ole Danny Woodhead is losing out, because he isn't that type of back. He can still average 4 ypc doing this but waste of his ability, he isn't going to break tackles and constantly get through trash at the line. At least Gerhart has gotten more of a variety, and I get to thinking, is this the line of thinking that has held White backs away from being featured guys? because there is no longer a two back system with the old split back set, one guy runs a variety, of course some rbbc rotate their guys.

    Im not sure what exactly he is knowledgeable on except being old and having watched a ton of football (apparently all the games before Sunday ticket) his entire life if he can't understand concepts such as basic run plays. Im curious as to what cf concepts he buys into.

    as far as Lynch, he is going to be in. He made it to the final 15 finalists over Steve Atwater, just didn't make the final cut this year, and it was his first eligible year.

    Vrabel SHOULD make it in, he was versatile and could do everything and excelled at everything, unfortunately that makes his numbers not pop in any one area, but they are great all around, however his versatility may hurt him in the long run. However, this was the case for Brooks, that he was great at multiple things that are asked of linebackers, with rushing the passer being the weakest, but he wasn't asked to with the Tampa 2 and the dline they had. Vrabel excelled at the run, coverage and rushing the passer, which is rare to find all 3 in a player. Not to mention the versatility of lining up as a tight end and not only catching tds but blocking as well. I mean thats one of the arguments against Kevin Greene, is that he was too one dimensional, as in great in only getting to the qb, but his stats aren't far off from Rickey Jackson, both were just more defensive ends who lined up at linebacker, Greene may have less takles, but 32 more sacks, and lets not forget how pitiful the Saints teams were, often the offense would be running the ball to run out clock because of winning so more chance at getting tackles because obvious running plays, and Jackson played on the Dome Patrol who are supposed to be one of the top units. But for arguments sake lets keep him out because he was "one dimensional", where does this leave someone like Vrabel who excelled at all 3 areas? You left out a key stat, 40 pass deflections, and before Watt, pass deflections mainly came from being in coverage. Vrabel couldn't rush the passer, play the run and be in coverage on the same play so I don't see how his stats should be looked down upon by the voters. Keep in mind most of that was done in 8 years, his first 4 years wasted with the Steelers barely seeing the field and over the hill his last two with Kansas.


    Guys like Kerney and Schobel, people will be like "who?"when it comes to voting. There names only come up when people are trying to compare a White DE to a past one and are either joking or trying to be different with the comparison. Jared Allen is the main 4-3 end who has a shot and its going to be a while before he is eligible.

    Aaron Smith really should make it in, he really was a crucial part of many Steeler defenses, I just don't think voters will see it like that, but who knows. Brooking and Thomas should be a lock. When is Urlacher eligible?

    as far as racial apprenticeships, one reason I have expected is so these White guys can't put up hall of fame numbers, someone like Jordy should have had at least 4 or 5 1k seasons by now. Many dwfs think he just came into the league a few years ago. What will they say with Welker,? he made up for the lost time with multiple 100+ catch seasons, up to 120 sometimes catching up pretty quickly. And his first 3 years, although not used as much as a wideout, has the 2nd most all purpose yards for a player's first 3 years behind Gale Sayers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  16. whiteathlete33

    whiteathlete33 Hall of Famer

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    This will be my last post on this topic and I will never again respond to Sportshistorian because I don't want to mess any threads up but I feel I need to put this out there. I have yet to see this guy Sportshistorian post even ONE pro white point on this site yet. Creating threads dedicated to black players of old is not pro-white. In addition he used to post in the boxing thread and continuously put down the Klitschko brothers, Joe Calzaghe and other white legends while hyping up Larry Holmes and Ali. How is this pro white? Am I drunk? Not to mention he creates threads to attack Bigunreal. If this guy is pro-white then maybe I need to be reading Desi Cortez. I know for a fact many on this site aren't too fond of this guy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  17. dwid

    dwid Hall of Famer

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    well, you see, he is the oldest member of this site who watched EVERY SINGLE SPORTING EVENT since the 50's, LIVE and recorded it somehow to rewatch it. So when we get footage of something that is a little bit old and see how good a White athlete is, he is here to provide an "unbiased" view on how some black player was better. You see, those old games that Jim Taylor played in, well highlights and 20 to 30 minute condensed versions don't provide the detail of his old mind that can remember every minute of games that last for at least 3 hours. I mean they tried to hook him up to a computer to record his historic knowledge, but he knew so much that the computer fried. And all of those black highlight shows, he just watches to make sure they are correct. And he made a donation to the PFRA to get members only stuff so he really knows what he is talking about, but I doubt he has to use those sites to figure out anything, or other sites like pro football reference, but make sure you check those sites before posting anything, because if you make an error, he will call you out on your idiotic ways.

    You see, Whites can be good, but number 1 good? no way man, top 20 at certain positions maybe, don't you know there are ALWAYS black athletes that are better. Remember the golden rule, Jim Brown was the greatest runningback of all time regardless of competition faced, post season performance and any other factors. To say anything against this is blasphemy to the football gods.

    and definitely don't ever question the integrity of the NFL, he has been watching his entire life, there is no way in the world that something shady could have gone on, EVER, in its entire history. To suggest otherwise is just a personal attack on him to try and ruin what he has known all of his life. Saying otherwise about the NFL, or Brown, Krause , Ali, Holmes . is like telling a person who was around the first moon landing watching it live on television, and telling them it was possibly faked (except I think we really did land on the moon)

    in seriousness, I'd like to know the answer

    he probably has posted a few pro White things since 2004 but I don't know. There have been a few members who have decided that the caste system was not real and discrimination doesn't happen and leave the site. He has maintained the same stance, even agreeing with one of these posters saying something like "I try to reason with them but they just won't listen"

    just take stuff he says with a grain of salt. He is just a SPORT historian, not a SPORTS historian. Which sport that he is the most familiar with, I am not sure. Bowling?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  18. Upside

    Upside Mentor

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    -I would say Lynch, Urlacher and Thomas are locks.
    -Brooking should be, but I have a feeling he's going to wait a long time.
    -Romanowski should be, but like Don mentioned, the media hates him, due to his aggressiveness toward black players, which is the main reason I think Mark Gastineau and Lyle Alzado aren't in yet, and I bet probably the reason Kevin Greene is still waiting.
    - Bruschi, Vrabel, and Aaron Smith should get major consideration, not only because their stats back it up, but they also made big contributions in the post season as well.
    - I think the thing that hurts Kerney and Schobel is that they may have retired too soon, (32 and 31, respectively) particularly Schobel, as he was still dominate when he walked away. He could have easily played at least 3-4 more years. Kerney was starting to slow down in his last few years, but sill could have played a couple more IMO; both would have at least crossed the 100+ sack mark. Michael Strahan's numbers look better, but he played until he was 36!
    -Kampman was killed by injuries, and I only threw Schulz in there because he had a ton of INTs in a short span of time.
     
  19. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    I've done this several times before, but here are some of the white players who are far more worthy of the HOF than the Curley Culps, Floyd Littles, Rayfield Wrights, Charlie Sanderses, etc.:

    Jerry Smith, Joe Jacoby, Kevin Greene, Mick Tingelhoff, Dick Anderson, Bill Bradley, Bill Bergey, Ralph Neely, Gary Collins, Jim Covert, Bill Fralic, John David Crow, Del Shofner, Boyd Dowler, Jerry Kramer, Howard Mudd, Alex Karras, Larry Morris, Tommy Nobis, Bobby Boyd, Eddie Meador, Tony Boselli, Mark Stepnoski, the list is endless. Note that Covert was first team on the 1980s all-decade squad, Fralic second team. Crow, Collins, Shofner, Dowler, Kramer, Neely, Mudd, Karras, Meader, Boyd and Nobis were all on the 1960s all-decade team.

    How can someone be on the NFL's all-decade team and not be in the Hall of Fame? Well, lots of purposefully forgotten white players are.

    The token white players inducted into the Hall of Fame should stop showing up for the ceremony. Make a statement that being a part of this Affirmative Action, Casteon nonsense is no "honor."
     

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