ballon d'or

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by frederic38, Oct 12, 2012.

  1. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    the most prestigious individual award in football

    let's post all the things related to this award (and other awards) in this thread

    so far since 1956, 48 awards out of 56 have been won by a white player (in a few weeks that should be 49, since messi, iniesta, cristiano ronaldo or casillas are going to win the 2012 balon d'or)
    most of the non-whites who won it are brazilians (ronaldinho, rivaldo, ronaldo), then there is the kabyle zidane in 1998
    then there are the "dutchman" gullit (mixed race), eusebio (who was born in africa to a white portuguese father) and the only african to ever win it, weah

    a few things i can say about the award:
    i know nothing about football from gullit's era
    i know nothing about eusebio either


    [​IMG]
    zidane's ballon d'or in 1998 is a joke, it's because they had to give it to one of the players that won the world cup that year, and france had no offensive player that had an impact, they won with a lot of luck and they played really defensively
    zidane did nothing in this tournament, nothing, except his 2 goals vs brazil in the final, but frank leboeuf could have scored these goals, they were just headers on corner kicks
    he got a dumb red card in the group stages, so he was suspended for the 8th of finals match vs paraguay (1-0 after extra time)
    he played against italy in quarter finals but the italians knew him perfectly and there was always 2 italians defending on him, so he didn't do anything (0-0 and france won in the penalty kicks)
    in semi final he did nothing either, against croatia, and in final either
    he was also non-existant in 2000 when france won the euro champs
    zidane's best world cup was in 2006
    he might be good enough to deserve the golden ball, but absolutely not in 1998

    [​IMG]
    i also saw weah play in france, with marseille late in his career
    i looked him up then because i know how bad the african players are and i wanted to know how he managed to win the ballon d'or
    i was not really surprised to see that it was an obvious case of affirmative action
    weah's ballon d'or was a combination of 2 things:

    1)no clear favourite for the award
    that year, there was no world cup, and no euro champs, no african cup of nations either
    -in italy: ac milan reached the final of the champions league with an excellent paolo maldini, but they lost it and finished only 4th of the italian league
    batistuta was the top scorer of the league but unfortunately his team (fiorentina) didn't have good enough results
    -in germany: dortmund (with sammer) reached the semi final of the champions league, but they finished obly 6th of the german league
    -in spain: real madrid won the league with zamorano being the top scorer and laudrup the best player, but they did nothing in champions league
    -in premiere league: the big names weren't successful, and blackburn surprisingly won the league, with an incredible alan shearer (34 goals)
    -ajax won the champions league, but it was with a very young team, and they don't give the ballon d'or to young players
    litmanen was only 23 years old for example

    2)the context
    the amount of foreign players in europe was increasing, and there was a lot of talk about allowing more foreign players in european clubs
    the very famous bosman ruling (which allowed the european clubs to have as many foreign players as they wanted) was adopted that year, just before they gave the award to weah...
    as a consequence, the rule changed for the ballon d'or award that year, for the first time the award was for the best payer - of any nationality - in europe, while before it was for the best european player
    it was obvious that they were going to give the award to a non-european player (because romario didn't won it for being brazilian, while he dominated european football the year before)
    the best non-europeans were the chilean zamorano with real madrid, and the argentine batistuta for fiorentina
    but they were not africans

    let's have a look at weah's season that year:
    weah played in the french league, for PSG
    that year, he had the worst season in his career
    he scored only 7 goals in the french league, his team mates ginola and rai scored much more than him and they were middlefielders, he scored 1 goal every 384 minutes, which is very very bad
    he scored 7 goals in champions league, but 5 out of these 7 goals were scored in the group stages, 4 against spartak moscow and dynamo kiev
    he didn't score in the second leg of the quarter finals, and he didn't score in the semi finals either

    the ballon d'or is awarded at the half of the season, so we must also take into account his start of the season with his new club, ac milan: 6 goals in 14 matches in serie A, and 3 goals in 5 matches in champiosn league, agaisnt a bad polish club and a czech club

    overall, his stats for this year (taking into account the start of the season with ac milan) are 1 goal every 275 minutes, which is pretty bad
    he didn't win any major title either, since PSG didn't won the champions league, and nantes won the french league

    so it's fair to say that, as expected, weah's ballon d'or was the least deserved in history, he only won it because he was african and so he became the first african to ever win the award (and the only one so far)

    [​IMG]

    maybe ronaldo's second golden ball in 2002 was also undeserved, because he didn't dominate european football, and he was never the same player again after his big injury in 1999
    but he won the world cup that year, and when there's a world cup the winner is always amongst the team that won it
    but it's easier to win a world cup when you're brazilian
    at his top, ronaldo lost the world cup, in 1998
    he had an horrible final vs france (maybe because of health problems)
    but ronaldo was used to underperforming in the most important matches: with internazionale he was very bad in some decisive matches for the scudetto, against lazio and juventus for example
    as a consequence, he never won any major title while at his best (before his huge injury)
    ronaldo's legend has been inflated by the ones that make videos about him on youtube
    amazing player, but he didn't accomplish as much as most people say
    personally, i used to like rivaldo better than him

    another unfair thing that i noticed happened in 2010:

    [​IMG]

    the best player of the 2010 world cup was diego forlan, but he didn't win it because with his club he did well, but he won the europa league which is not rated by the ones who award the ballon d'or
    in club football, the player of the year was undoubtlessly diego milito, who won everything with internazionale : champions league (goals in semi-finals, and the 2 goals of the final) italian serie A (22 goals, including the one that officially gave the title to internazionale), and the italian cup (he scored the only goal of the final)
    messi won the award, i'm OK with it, but milito wasn't even in the list of the potential winners!
    here's the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_Ballon_d'Or
    the african etoo is in the list and finishes 12th, while he was second choice to diego milito at internazionale that season! (with mourinho as a coach)


    recently, the rules changed, and players from non-european leagues can win the ballon d'or, but all the winners were playing in europe, ofcourse
    they also no longer take into consideration the accomplishments of the team, but the individual performance, which means that they no longer have to give the award automtically to a player from a team that did well in champions league or in a world cup
    with this rule, zidane wouldn't have won the ballon d'or in 1998
     
  2. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

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    Forlan came in 5th in 2010. For me that year Messi was the best player and Forlan was second but I'd have preferred Forlan to win it as it would've been his only chance. I think Ronaldo should win it this year.
     
  3. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

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    Looking over previous winners since 1980 (when non-whites became a big enough demographic in Europe to produce lots of good footballers) not too many non-whites have won it. I see the ridiculously overrated diving cheater Rivaldo was one of them. George Weah was a good player but his period - the mid-90s - was a bit of a barren spell in terms of great footballers. The fact that Klinsmann was runner-up to Weah in 1995 tells you how bad a year it was.

    It's strange how we forget some of these players. In France Jean-Pierre Papin may be well known but I had to look him up on Google Images. I don't think I've even heard his name since he played in Germany in the mid-90s.Another guy who is completely forgotten in the English-speaking world is Oliver Bierhoff. I remember him scoring a lot for Udinese in Serie A.
     
  4. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    why? messi beat every goal scoring record this past season
    he's going to win it i think

    he was one of my favourite players
    very selfish, but he was incredible
    i don't remember any dives from him while he was at barcelona, but there's the 2002 world cup ofcourse

    but he shouldn't have won the golden ball
    shearer, batistuta, laudrup and litmanen deserved it more i think
    if it's based on the performances of the current season, there is no way weah could win the award, while he scored just 7 goals in the french league and didn't even win the league



    the media need to forget about these black jokes like drogba or etoo, because there are incredible players that are not respected enough
    how many players have been top scorer of the champions league 3 times in a row while being the top scorer of his national league at the same time?
    not many, and papin did it

    his goals at marseille:
    [video=youtube_share;-EukxTgYd50]http://youtu.be/-EukxTgYd50[/video]

    can a striker get any better than that? he can score from inside and outside the penalty area, in every position, with both feat and the head
     
  5. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    is schevchenko highly rated in english speaking countries? is he considered superior to drogba, etoo, ronaldo (the brazilian)?
     
  6. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

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    Shevchenko is respected. I'm not sure he'd be considered better than those players, especially Ronaldo, but Eto'o, yes as he's not well known in England.

    Keep in mind when it comes to soccer "English-speaking" pretty much means the UK as even Americans get a lot of their information from English media and commentators. I find that the English media is quite insular. Even Messi wasn't all that well known until a couple of years ago and generally the EPL-boosters in the media said he wasn't all that good. So unless the player is really good and has helped his country at a World Cup the media ignores him if he doesn't play in England. Shevchenko played for Chelsea and he also played for Milan at a time when Italian football got more media attention in England (today Serie A is mostly ignored) so he is well respected.
     
  7. Europe

    Europe Mentor

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    That's stupid. These awards are dubious enough when several players a year could win it, but you split the season up on top of that. If they give out an award, it should be from the start of the football year to the end- August thru May. Forget about the WC or Euros. Give special awards for those if you have to.

    They could have a league player of the year for what you do in you own league and the a separate award for the Champions League.
     
  8. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    i thought that since shevchenko wasn't very succesfull with chelsea they would think that he's not the best striker of the last 20 years, which he is :biggrin:
    in france, and in other countries i suspect, etoo and drogba are WAY over rated
    they will always come up when you ask who is the best striker of the last 20 years
     
  9. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    i actually like this award
    i like the tradition, what it means in soccer
    it was awarded by the newspaper "france football", which used to be the official magazine of the french football federation, so the official magazine of the FIFA
    i think that if only one award should remain, it should be this one
    however, i have no idea why they take into consideration 1,5 season instead of 1 season
     
  10. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    here it is, the list of the 23 players for the 2012 ballon d'or award, the best 23 players in the world ( :eek:hwell: ):

    Sergio Agüero (ARG/Manchester City)
    Mario Balotelli (ITA/Manchester City)
    Karim Benzema (FRA/Real Madrid)
    Gianluigi Buffon (ITA/Juventus Turin)
    Sergio Busquets (ESP/FC Barcelone)
    Iker Casillas (ESP/Real Madrid)
    Didier Drogba (CIV/Chelsea, puis Shanghai Shenhua)
    Radamel Falcao (COL/Atletico Madrid)
    Zlatan Ibrahimovic (SUE/Milan AC, puis Paris-SG)
    Andrés Iniesta (ESP/FC Barcelone)
    Lionel Messi (AR/ FC Barcelone)
    Manuel Neuer (ALL/Bayern Munich)
    Neymar (BRE/Santos)
    Mesut Özil (ALL/Real Madrid)
    Gerard Piqué (ESP/FC Barcelone)
    Andrea Pirlo (ITA/Juventus Turin)
    Sergio Ramos (ESP/Real Madrid)
    Cristiano Ronaldo (POR/Real Madrid)
    Wayne Rooney (ANG/Manchester United)
    Yaya Touré (CIV/Manchester City)
    Robin van Persie (HOL/Arsenal, puis Manchester United)
    Xabi Alonso (ESP/Real Madrid)
    Xavi Hernandez (ESP/FC Barcelone)

    the non-whites are yaya touré, balotelli, drogba (blacks) neymar and falcao (mestizos) benzema and ozil (arabs/muslims)

    it's incredible to see balotelli and benzema on that list, but at least etoo disapeared
     
  11. Europe

    Europe Mentor

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    I am going to look at some English sites and see how many Englishman say Rooney shouldn't be nominated as opposed to Balotelli. It's a joke that Balotelli is nominated. Benzema is nominated but Higuain isn't?

    Higuain 22 goals in 35 games in La Liga with 7 assists 2011-12. 6 goals in 9 games with 2 assists in la liga this year.


    Benzema 21 in 34 and 7 assists 2011 12, this year 1 goal in 8 games 2 assists.

    I don't know about minutes played.
     
  12. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    i know the stats by heart, i've been trolling relentlessly on french forums with these:

    last season, benzema played 2255 minutes in la liga, higuain 1707
    yet, as you noted, higuain scored more (22) than benzema (21)
    while benzema scored 1 goal every 107 minutes in la liga, higuain scored 1 goal every 77 minutes! which is one of the best ratios in europe
    if you add champions league, benzema has 1 goal every 107 minutes and higuain 1 goal every 89 minutes

    higuain started 18 matches, and 18 of his goals were scored as titular
    benzema started 26 matches, and 17 of his goals were scored as titular

    then people will say that higuain's goals were unimportant, goals scored while his team already won the match 3-0 or 4-0, useless goals
    this is false, actually it's benzema's goals which have been useless
    higuain's goals earned real madrid 16 points, while benzema's goals earned real madrid 7 points
    higuain scored the goal of the title (against athletic bilbao) and the goal which gave real madrid the lead in the spanish league (against real sociedad, 0-1 for real madrid: http://youtu.be/gSwg5bX6Bv0 ) a position which they never left

    they say that benzema has more assists, while higuain just waits in the penalty area, it's ridiculous because strikers must score goals, and higuain has many assists as well, as you noted
    a lot of assists in real madrid are ridiculous, for example you pass the ball to ronaldo and he scores from a shot from 35 metres

    with their respective national teams, there is no match between the 2, higuain starts for argentina, he scored in world cups, copa america, he's the top scorer of the south american qualifiers, while benzema never scored a goal in any competition for france, he has been the worst striker in the history of the euro champs according to opta, 0 goals in 2 euro champs and 22 shots whithout scoring
    benzema: 15 goals in 55 matches for france, one of the worst ratios for a starter in europe, currently more than 700 minutes whithout a goal with france
    higuain: 19 goals in 30 matches for argentina
    and they are the same age

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    regarding the english players, they could have nominated hart instead of balotelli, balotelli did nothing to help manchester city win the title, while hart was incredible, probably their best player last year
    actually, when balotelli played manchester city had bad results (stoke, arsenal and many others, after the match against arsenal in which he got a red card, everybody - me included - thought that manchester city had no chance to win the title) and they won every match after he was suspended
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  13. ThePhilosopher

    ThePhilosopher Mentor

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    Regarding Balotelli,Let alone the whole world,I'm not even convinced he's one of the best 23 players in Manchester.

    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  14. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    the 3 finalists for this year, the 3 best players in the world:

    http://www.fifa.com/ballondor/playeroftheyear/index.html


    • CRISTIANO RONALDO

      2012 was yet another glorious year for the irrepressible Cristiano Ronaldo. With Portugal, he scored twice against the Netherlands and another against the Czech Republic to propel his side to the semi-finals of EURO 2012, while with Real Madrid, he won La Liga – scoring 46 goals along the way – and played a key role in their run to the Champions League semi-finals.
      [​IMG]

      Andres INIESTA

      Still a spectacular and impressive figure in the Barcelona midfield, and often standing head and shoulders above the rest, Andrés Iniesta took centre stage for Spain once again in June, winning his second European Championship title and being named as the best player, not only of the final, but also of the entire tournament.
      [​IMG]

      Lionel MESSI

      Even though Barcelona did not lift a major trophy in 2012 – the Copa del Rey aside – Lionel Messi continued to go from strength to strength, amassing goals and records along the way. The three-time Ballon d’Or winner was no less impressive for Argentina either, helping them dominate the South American FIFA World Cup qualifiers.
      [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  15. Giles Daldanus

    Giles Daldanus Guru

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    I have a slight bias in favour of those footballers who tend to do really well (overperform) for their national teams. Competitions between countries (even if they take place solely on the football pitch) evoke strong emotions and often appeal even to the neutrals. Thus, if I was on the panel, I would have been inclined to vote for Iniesta, but of course no one can argue against Messi's numbers and the "pure football skills" demonstrated by him.

    I think that Messi will win this award, Cristiano Ronaldo (who did not keep a low profile in the derby matches, scoring important goals against Bayern and Barcelona) will come in second place and Iniesta will earn the bronze ball.
     
  16. ThePhilosopher

    ThePhilosopher Mentor

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    I know I'm in a minority,but I think Ronaldo deserves the Ballon d'or this year.
    Messi has a superior support cast around him.
    And also I'm sure Ronaldo would many more goals if he could play central.

    Where Messi has Iniesta and Fabregas,Ronaldo has to make do with Ozil and Di Maria.
     
  17. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    too bad that ronaldo is trapped in a club with so many problems at the momment, which care more about merketing than winning titles
     
  18. Europe

    Europe Mentor

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    I don't feel sorry for him. He wanted to go there because it is his dream club. All these players want to play for the same few clubs which is a major flaw in soccer.

    I can't stand kaka too. He only will play for a "big" club like AC Milan or Real. A lot of players are like this.

    Only two Spanish teams have won the European Cup, while 6 British teams have won it. They need to spread the talent around more.
     
  19. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    the funny thing is that spain is a country with strong regions
    catalunya (barcelona) is an example, but it's the same everywhere
    so it's a country where there could be many good clubs
    when you go to a region the people are very interested in their local club, no matter how weak it is compared to real madrid
     
  20. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

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    With his 85th and 86th goals against Real Betis on Sunday I think Messi has now got it sown up - despite what I said earlier in the thread about Ronaldo deserving it for leading Madrid to the championship.

    BTW Gerd Muller shows he is no bitter Pele:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...celona-star-breaks-record-for-most-goals.html

    Compare that to Pele's surly remarks about Messi.
     
  21. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    ribery, who wasn't amongst the 22 best players in the world according to FIFA (the list was posted above) has been named best player of the year in bundesliga:

    http://www.dw.de/peers-vote-for-ribery-as-best-in-bundesliga/a-16489272

    this makes benzema and balotelli's presence in the list totally illogical, because the best french player is not on the list, but benzema is
    benzema manages to be on the list while higuain (who has been more important than him for real madrid, as proven above) and the best french player are not on the list
    balotelli, no comment needed, most overrated player by far, he would be as know as carlton cole or anthony modeste if he was english or french
     
  22. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

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    The awards have been handed out. As expected Messi won the Ballon d'Or. Best goal of the year went to Miroslav Stoch (a Slovakian) for this:

    [video=youtube;6HTQ-VdQoCM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HTQ-VdQoCM[/video]

    The voting:

    Messi: 41.6%

    Ronaldo: 23.7%
    Iniesta: 10.9%
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  23. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

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    The FIFA world team of the year:

    • Iker Casillas (Real Madrid)
    • Dani Alves (Barcelona)
    • Gerard Pique (Barcelona)
    • Sergio Ramos (Real Madrid)
    • Marcelo (Real Madrid)
    • Andres Iniesta (Barcelona)
    • Xabi Alonso (Real Madrid)
    • Xavi (Barcelona)
    • Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid)
    • Radamel Falcao (Atletico Madrid)
    • Lionel Messi (Barcelona

    Two blacks - Alves and Marcelo, and one other non-white (I think) in Falcao. No Van Persie? Maybe he was hurt by Euro 2012.

    BTW Messi needs some fashion advice:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/socce...-fourth-straight-ballon-d-193231728--sow.html

    Apparently Ronaldo looked disgusted and angry when Messi's name was announced but I haven't seen any photos of his reaction yet.
     
  24. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    worth mentionning, the 3 non-whites are south americans
    dani alves is less than 25% black probably
    2 of them are fullbacks anyway, i tend to believe that today, a fullback is either a central defender who's not solid enough to play at the center back position, or a middlefielder who's not skilled enough
    bale was a fullback but when they saw that he had the ability to score goals they used him as a winger
    abidal, who used to be on that kind of best 11 when he was a starter for barcelona, was a central defender but he wasn't good enough to play in that position
    dani alves is said to be good at attacking but bad at defending


    i saw ronaldo's face live, he was just thinking about something else, then when he saw that he was filmed he started smiling again
    he's not the kind of guy who likes to finish 2nd

    and i posted that goal by stoch in the great goal thread :icon_cool:
    that's why i kind of like the turkish league, they let white players from less fashionable nations get their chance(the best example are the scandinavian players i think)
    stoch was a chelsea player i think but he was sold


    the players who could have been replaced with players from other leagues (other white players of course):
    casillas
    piqué (out of shape for the whole season)
    falcao
    i don't really care about the fullbacks but there might have been better fullbacks than these 2
    alba from barcelona vs marcelo i don't know who's the best, but alba won the euro champs
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  25. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

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    i saw that there was one player or coach who voted for benzema
    benzema ahead of messi and ronaldo! you'd have to be crazy
    i looked up who it was, and was not really surprised when i saw that it was the french-born algerian international majid bougherra
    this is tribalism

    a video of messi's goals this past year, that allowed him to beat gerd muller's record for the most goals scored in a year:

    [video=youtube_share;qXrltgfrrqw]http://youtu.be/qXrltgfrrqw[/video]
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013

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