west african are faster on avarage

Discussion in 'Track & Field' started by waterbed, Jun 20, 2010.

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blacks are naturally faster on avarage

  1. 00that blacks do beter at 100 meter is not genetic

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  2. blacks are faster on average genetically

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  1. Observer

    Observer Mentor

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    waterbed, thanks for an interesting thread.
    Two things:
    1) On that boxing side-track: I can understand that as the Italians and Irish migrated out of boxing here in America, they left behind a great American boxing tradition -- into which hungry Blacks entered, and then later the Hispanics. And also that when the Iron Curtain crashed, there were thousands of physically and mentally tough young Slavic men eager for the new opportunities afforded to them in the post-Communist environment. But what is behind the strong tradition in Cuban boxing? I know that their "amateurs" are really "pros"; but even so, these skills are not acquired easily. What is the history behind why Cubans are so competitive in boxing?

    2) On that bit about the 40 yard times: quickness & speed are almost inversely proportional. Obviously, long legs often do not make for quickness or agility. Quarterhorses vs. thoroughbreds. I remember a cousin of mine -- very long, loping strides -- almost worthless in a sport like football. But from about 1/8th to 1/2 mile he was something to behold. But I'm surprised that a little squirt like Trindon Holliday doesn't scorch the other 40-yard guys. A true high-end sprinter like Justin Gatlin wouldn't even have made that 40-yard listing (he timed in the 4.4's, although perhaps slightly injured) -- but most of those on the list would not have been within 10 meters of him (about 0.8 seconds) in a 100m sprint.

    And as far as football siphoning speed away from the track -- I think it's just the opposite. My reasoning is that football CREATES tracksters as a by-product of large-scale PED use. Football requires speed and bulk, and PED's do this. Now, as a byproduct of this, there is a huge pool of people who have the build needed for short-sprint talent.

    If the only goal were to use PED's for speed on the track, then if you get caught or not quite good enough -- you're done, no Plan B. But if for some reason your football hopes are dashed -- well, you have already built yourself into a viable short sprinter with the help of PED.
     
  2. Observer

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    waterbed, you've made a whole bunch of interesting observations. One in particular is this observation about the east Asians. I had noticed that east Asians can sprint and can also run long distance, but I had never thought about this particular point that they are not very good at the middle distances. I wonder why that would be the case?
     
  3. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    Cuba produced boxing champions going back to the days of Kid Chocolate in the 30's. Amateur boxing took off because Castro banned professional boxing as he said it was exploitative. Cuban professionals in the early 60's defected and remained in the US or Latin America. Almost all of the professional boxers were Black/Mulatto.
     
  4. The Master

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  5. space hillbilly

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    I hate it when a troll get's banned before anybody can destroy them!

    First, I just love the way BrockFan "cherry picked" his points,
    the USSR didn't even start most of their boxing programs before the 60's. american fighter's knew a gold medal would look good on their pro record.that's way we seen so many pro-black-american decision's in the olympics.
    Clay [aka] ali, was TKO'd by Anthony Madigan in the 1960 olympics,
    but the ref didn't stop the fight!
    Hans Huber beat Joe Frazier easy, but lost a decision that was called one of the worst in olympic history. and I can go on and on!

    But, white easteuro's being on top of heavyweight boxing has nothing to do with black going into the NFL! also! why if black's are so good at boxing, there's no heavyweight olympic gold medalists from afirca???
     
  6. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Decided to address Rebajlo's spot on analysis from the World Cup thread here! I'm glad this (Not) Brock(Lesnar)Fan is banned already because it's probably Blacksimus again and he will keep posting his infamous "lists" without addressing any of our points in our rebuttals to him.

    Some great points here. Let's use your spot on reasoning and take a look at RB for example. I am a wealth of knowledge about the position. You have whites way on the end of the bell curve like Sam McGuffie (4.32) and Jake Sharp timed by scouts between 4.34 and 4.43 at his Pro Day. O.k this isn't quite Chris Johnson speed 4.24, but it is very close and a 0.1 second differential over 40 yards is slightly less than a yard over a 40 yard race (about 0.9 yards) and the record for even 30 yard runs in a season was held by Jim Brown (7) for over 30 years before DeAngelo Williams had 8 in 2008 and I think Chris Johnson broke it the very next year (last season) with 10.

    When you put the whole picture together and see how many whites have done amazingly with their 10 yard clips (for instance Eric Weddle was one of very few white smaller speed position players invited to recent combines and from the 1999-2009 combines, he was tied for the 4th fastest 10 yard clip ever at 1.43- also Danny Woodhead ran a 1.44 at his Pro Day). Whites equal blacks in vertical leaping as well. Whites hold 8 of the top 11 high jump marks of all time and Caucasian Jameson Konz (who not surprisingly wasn't invited to the NFL combine) tied Gerald Sensabaugh's (black) vertical leap record from the combine at his Pro Day jumping 46 inches!)

    Now lets take a look at agility. I started a thread in the NFL section on the 2009 combine analysis "lateral agility trumps speed on the football field" (you can Google search this). Whites were overrepresented with the best agility differentials that year (40 time -short shuttle) and YET AGAIN this year whites were overrepresented amongst the top agility scores compared to their rate of participation in the very black NFL combine.

    There are two types of agility that I have scouted out amongst RBs.
    1. X-Y agility: This is the ability to turn on the jets with an amazing first few steps and after seeing a small seam make one great cut and attack it going "upfield". This kind of agility is crucial for powerbacks. After making their decisive cut a powerback hits that seam fast and hard and breaks arm tackles and then uses the best running angles to get the most out of his runs. These kind of backs are often bigger framed and can handle more carries and often get better as the game wears on. I believe whites tend to have a slight advantage amongst elites for making the best tailbacks of this type.

    2. X-Z agility: This kind of agility is usually very prevalent in scatbacks. Nile Knapp and Sam McGuffie are the best examples of whites on the end of the bell curve of this type of agility and they aren't that far off of the all time greatest scatback Barry Sanders. When watching these guys film they definitely have some DeAngelo Williams/Chris Johnson/Gale Sayers type ability. X-Z agility is the ability to jump cut, twist, turn your profile, dart, swerve and move laterally and make guys miss in very tight spaces. With the preference for speed over freakish strength (when you can't find both in a player) in LBs and defensive backs in today's FBS and NFL football- this type of agility doesn't make a player as much of a mismatch as it did even 10-15 years ago. Hershall Walker in his late career is an example of a player who had world class speed, but resorted to stutter stepping and juking from side to side before getting tackled for short or no gains often by the time he played for the NY Giants. If a player has truly rare X-Z agility like Barry Sanders or the other aforementioned players they can be a true nightmare as a big play threat. Those type of players who not only possess these elite type of athletic tools, but have the awareness and instincts to use it well on the field are VERY rare. In today's game you have time for maybe one twist and a cut or making a slight dart in one direction before quickly darting/bouncing in another direction. More than two quick moves without attacking in a north-south direction will usually get you tackled for no gain or a loss. ESPN makes ridiculous analysis commonly, when attempting to disparage a white powerback to push for more United Negro College fund quotas with ridiculous statements like this ie. "lacks the ability to put together multiple moves in an instant", yet if it's a black powerback like Chris Wells, Shonn Greene or John Clay they have no problem with ranking the player as a top tailback for the NFL draft. Dancing around will just get you tackled in today's game anyway. Even Reggie Bush who has rare X-Z agility doesn't have it to the point that he can attempt to run like Barry Sanders and be successful. In conclusion, I'd say that blacks on the far end of the bell curve have a slight advantage for being amongst the most elite scatbacks because of a slight advantage in X-Z agility.

    In conclusion from watching film, comparing measurables and comparing H.S and college production in all levels: I IMO believe that about 70% of powerbacks should be white and about 50% of scatbacks should be white. Tailback should be about a 60% white position and many teams would find success with having a dual threat backfield with a powerback and scatback splitting carries. The only position I could see being a black majority position in today's NFL with the current U.S ethnic demographics would be CB, which should still be almost half white (maybe 40% white?).

    Edited to add: I should mention strength as well- which of course is important in football for not only DTs and DEs, but powerbacks as well. Whites have a small edge in this category in overall leg strength (particularly the quads) and upper body strength over blacks. Whites hold the bench and squat records and dominate strong man competitions.
    Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  7. freedom1

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  8. waterbed

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    Endurance with high speed is very hard working for the lungs,with very long distances you get sore/ tired legs and you slow down mostly by that.But im not totally sure.I read that at same body size whites have bigger lungs then east asians
     
  9. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Another day and another positive result. Poor Shelly, it was from the dentist! Yeah sure it was.

    <I style="COLOR: #454d3e; FONT-SIZE: 0.9em">09/07/2010 | sid | News / ah[/I]

    <H2 ="t4__element_full__h2">Shelly-Ann Fraser tested positive </H2><B ="News_Details">Jamaica's 100-meter Olympic champion Shelly-Ann Fraser is part of the Diamond League meetings in Shanghai tested positive in May as been.[/B]<B ="News_Details">This gave her club president Bruce James announced late Thursday evening on.[/B]<B ="News_Details">The precise nature of the substances found Bruce James was not specified[/B]

    "It is not a performance enhancing or masking substance, so we hope for a quick settlement of the matter." Shelly-Ann Fraser should be in soon to the Jamaican Athletics Association jaaa set for a hearing.

    Bruce James further reported, Shelly-Ann Fraser was because of severe toothache in May in Kingston (Jamaica) went to the doctor.This gave her a painkiller that has not helped: "Therefore, it has concerned itself in Shanghai or an additional drug, and was then pain free enough to start at the meeting can."

    The 23-year-old Shelly-Ann Fraser won at the 2008 Olympics in Beijing in the 100 meters in 10.78 seconds. A year later she became world champion in Berlin in 10.79 seconds.A week ago she had decided at the meeting in Eugene (USA) against doping and for hard training, "I have always worked hard.I knew my time would come eventually." The secret of success is training, training, training. "
    Edited by: white lightning
     
  10. albinosprint

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    love it!
     
  11. greyghost

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    west africans are faster on drugs , definitely no other reason. end of the debate its so old at this stage. and that west africans are predisposed to sprints sure but so are many europeans lets face it, there is no sciencetific proof. and today lemaitre has pulled that monkey off our backs once and for all.lets see the anti white press try distort this one.blacks faster,,,, what aload of bollocks [​IMG]
     
  12. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Exactly my friend. You never hear anyone say Asians can't run. Mexicans can't run. It's always been and will always be an attack on anything white.

    Well they can take their racist bullsh** and stick it up their a**!


    Whites can compete with anyone period. We need more whites from around the world to get interested in track and you will see many more sub 10's and sub 20's.

    In my opinion, whites are the best athletes in the world. We dominate the majority of sports despite so many people trying to stop us and the stereotyping that goes on!
     
  13. greyghost

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    very true white lightning, also your right about craig pickering ,he needs to move soon!would love to see craig and christophe in the same training camp.;who knows? maybe soon [​IMG]
     
  14. mastermulti

    mastermulti Mentor

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    we whites do sometimes tend to have a "heads down, beat the breast in guilt" attitude that is nurtured by some of the extreme left brigade in response to our imperialism of the past. The problem to me though is that imperialist tendencies are the things that should be targeted, and not intertwined with or blamed on any particular "race".

    The same people will lambast the Japanese for killing/eating whale (which the Americans actually encouraged as a way to get protein to the people after WW2), in effect still enforcing imperialist tendencies by trying to dictate,with that wiffy air of superiority, how others should act.

    I like the middle ground where the pendulum is around centre. Going slighlty either way is OK for corrective purposes, but fully either side is the haunted ground of the psychologically disturbed IMOEdited by: mastermulti
     
  15. mastermulti

    mastermulti Mentor

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    ooops! sidetracked... now where was I?

    Lemaitre proved to be some sprinter today. He appears to have the genetic gifts to be a great sprinter regardless of race.
    But I want to see others do likewise so that he's not pointed out as the EXCEPTION to the rule that reinforces the ruleEdited by: mastermulti
     
  16. Alpha Male

    Alpha Male Mentor

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    "But I want to see others do likewise so that he's not pointed out as the EXCEPTION to the rule that reinforces the rule"

    If he were black and performed superbly in a white dominated sport it would be valid arguement in today's group thinkfor the calling of more blacks in that sport and further proof of black athletic superiority. For example, when the one half black Jerome Iglia had a good hockey season the media had a field day. Images of Lebron James donning a hockey helmet and wielding a stick ensued. SI ran a hidoeus article calling for more diversity in theNHL. Whenone fourth black Tiger Woods burst on the scene,the masses, including my uncle, colasced to think that now blacks were better at this sport too.Soon afterthe Williams sisters met some success in white dominated tenins the logic coninuted that blacks were just better at all sports;where they were absent howeverwas attributed toinstituiaonlzaed white racism keepng them in poverty or lack of interest. Thatthis line of thoughtcarried over to the culture cannot be denided. While trying to eat lunch att he college cafteria, , I heard a black chirp, "Blacks are taking over all sports." And yet despite all the brainwashing, the constant glorification of the black athlete and thedisparaging of the great white athlete pre -60, we continue to defy the steerotypes. As a good confomrist I can now safelypostulate that when a minority enters a sport, likeLemaitre in sprinting, and achives record breaking success, it is therefore logical to conlcude that other said people have the same potential and have not met that success in numbers predicted by population because of simialr obstacles: 1.) The white man faces discrimaition; he lacks the same spritinging opportunities blacks enjoy.Edited by: Alpha Male
     
  17. mastermulti

    mastermulti Mentor

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    Lemakitre will serve as a role model now for young gifted white kids who'll feel they can compete if they work hard and want to win.

    I've seen it happen over the years. Darren Clark was our most gifted 400m sprinter and the next 10 years brought out lots more good 400 guys, and 20+ years down the track AUSTRALIA still turns out some very capable 400 guys, much of it based on Clark success way back in the mid to late 80s.
     
  18. Observer

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    So, mastermulti, how many years will it take?

    With Wariner, it didn't take long for others to follow, only a couple years. Before that had happened, I would have guessed that the 8-10 year old boys would have needed to be influenced, and thus a 10 year developmental period. But with Wariner, it was certainly much less time than that, although perhaps we have only seen the beginning of his influence at this point in time.
     
  19. mastermulti

    mastermulti Mentor

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    well, I reckon there's be some current white sprinters who would get an immediate boost from this.
    But I guess there'll be a lot of little white Frenchies going to "little athletics" next season thinking they can be like their hero.
    They may not be Olympic standard for a while but lots more of them competing will reveal a lot more talented kids which should cause a spiral effect.

    Many of us remember Shirvo's exploits like yesterday... yet Christophe was 8yo when Matt ran that 10.03.
     
  20. mastermulti

    mastermulti Mentor

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    BTW, you'll love this W/L (and others)

    ArticleEdited by: mastermulti
     
  21. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    There are so many different factors that play a role in running fast. No scientist or doctor can say for sure that only certain groups can run fast. The are too many things to consider. One thing I hate is that they never want to talk about how the majority of the top sprinters have been busted or linked to steroids.

    Ben Johnson has a new book coming out in September. He said in an interview the other day, "Yes I took steroids but everyone else was doing the same thing". It's not a secret yet so many will swear to their death that these guys are clean. They are no more clean than the countless Major League Baseball Players or the guys in the NFL. The big secret will always be there.

    Saying the elite sprinters are clean is like saying Pro Wrestling is real and that they don't do steroids either. It's only obivous whether a black guy or white guy is on the juice. The DWFs just say, no he was born to run. What a joke!
     
  22. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    I have mixed feelings about Tyson Gay being clean or dirty "of steroids" right now WL. If I'd have to place a bet, I'd say that he has taken human growth hormone, but very likely is clean of steroids due to the VERY intense U.S anti-doping Pilot program he voluntarily joined. I think Bolt and Powell are probably not only taking HGH, but some sort of designer steroid as well (even though Bolt is probably the most gifted 100 and 200 meter runner who has ever lived anyway).

    Christophe's natural progression of PBs over 100 meters and lean build, lead me to believe he is not doing steroids. There is a solid chance he is doing something like HGH though- because it is so hard to detect.

    If Christophe may be able to run a low 9.8 in the near future without steroids, who's to say Gay can't run his 9.69 without steroids- at his more prime age for a sprinter.

    As you guys know, I've never subscribed to any theory that blacks are OVERALL better athletes than whites (if anything it's probably the opposite), but blacks seem to have a gift for 100 meters (and some other athletic strengths as well) due to having a tendency for slightly longer limbs compared to whites the same height- and a tendency for elite black sprinters to have slightly stronger hamstrings giving them a more bouncy stride with great leg lift, where whites tend to have a more powerful/horsepower more quad propelled stride. Workout numbers, and watching video of whites vs. blacks running seem to indicate this.

    I really do think that Lemaitre will prove that the difference between blacks and whites at 100 meters is very minuscule though. Christophe may even medal in London...We'll see! And who's to say he won't even run a high 9.7 some day (with a little help from HGH [​IMG])! Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  23. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Anyway, I also wanted to commend WL for being a big believer in whites measuring up at 100 meters (Lemaitre will open more people's eyes to seeing his sound arguments). I think this track forum is pretty evenly divided into posters who believe that blacks have a very slight edge from 10 or 20 meters until 350 meters or so, compared to those who think it is 100% a brainwashing, a numbers/rate of competing game in many countries, blacks responding to steroids better or being less suspected of it when they do well? or countries like Jamaica being huge on cheating with no national U.S style Pilot type program to prevent it. I am happy for all the encouraging posters who believe in white sprinters as Lemaitre's achievement is a victory for all of us despite our exact theories on 100 meters. [​IMG]
     
  24. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    First off, thanks for the kind works TJR. Second, I doubt Christophe would need to take anything. He just turned 20 a few weeks ago. He has so much natural HGH in his body that he wouldn't need anymore. That is more for older athletes in their 30's to 40's. Some young guys take it but I think they are crazy and they do long term damage to themselves.

    If more people would go back and watch races from the 40's -70's, then maybe they would see that whites and blacks took turns setting records and winning medals. Shortly after the civil rights movement, the cultural marxism kicked in. The US quit putting out white sprinters for the most part. Only a handful even before the massive p.e.d. usage started. I will say it again. Some blacks are very fast. Some whites are very fast. Whites are underrepresented in the sprints around the world. The few that break through come from the small nations like England, Poland, Germany, Australia and France. The big talent is here in the US and in Russia. Give me equal representation world wide and you will see a difference. Also clean up the drug cheaters around the globe to put the records back where they should be.

    If you can find guys like Guliyev and Lemaitre from small nations, think about what kind of talent is wasting away for decades in America. No one here cares. They are not trying to look for white sprinters. Only black ones. Just like the racial slotting in football and basketball. It's a shame because this could be a white sprinting hotbed.

    One last example. Brandon Byram was undefeated in the sprints in high school. No one wanted him. His mom had to bug the coach at Florida State over and over to get him to take a look. He would tell you this himself. It was on his twitter page. The whole deal and it happens over and over. So the few white guys that try are ignorred and only if they are very lucky do they get to comptete. End of rant. Thanks for listening.
     
  25. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Nice rant, I like it WL.

    Secondly, that is a good point about HGH- b/c Lemaitre very well may grow another inch or two- so he still has a lot of HGH in his system. I doubt he is using steroids for the reasons I state. I will also add that I bet France has a stringent anti-doping program like the U.S now does. Also, the suspicions will be high for Lemaitre being on steroids, since he is the first white to go sub 10 and he knows this- and he's a smart fellow. I think they even have easy ways to test for things like Creatine now as well.

    Lastly, that is a good point looking back on the history of 100 meters. When I did research I noticed that in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s and even into the 70s, the black and white times were virtually even (although black participation rates were less than now in the 1930s and 40s although Jesse Owens was famous). Then in the 1980s, blacks started to pull ahead.

    If I'd have to estimate, I'd say the typical difference between the white and black most elite times over 100 meters looking back at history- also considering rate of participation in history- would be about 0.1-0.15 seconds. This is only about a meter or a meter and a half! I don't buy the typical 0.3 to 0.4 differential of recent years being correct- as I think most of your arguments are sound WL.
     
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