sprinting and black athletes

[jayo1980]

I used to think that socio-economic
and various other environmental reasons could explain why they excel at sprints ,but it cant .

The reality is it simply comes down to hormones( the single most powerful substances in our bodies) .

That collectively as group ( western african origin) have definite higher testosterone levels and quite higher growth hormone levels. Now I say collectively as a group because individually test. levels vary just as much as other groups.
And similarly collectively in general whites have
lower test. levels but individually varies just as high or low.

This might bother some people, but not me as if my
testosterone was not high enough all need to do is
take some exogenous (made outside of body) amounts
of it that enable me to train harder ,for longer with quicker recovery and eventually if train right
lead to more gains in performance.

If as a race are intelligent enough to make exogenous
hormones ,then why not use them. I see no moral/health issues in using them and either do many black athletes
and then go say they dont.

well some people might say they are "not natural"
and give one extra help but so do other training aids
like synthetic track ,trainers , various equipment ,training
and recovery methods are just as "not natural" either in helping to increase performance.

The problem arises when certain training aids are not
availeable to everyone then you are called a cheat.
Personally i think alot of p.e.d's should be allowed
to serious athletes
AND as long as they are banned then i see the continuation of general disapperance of white sprinters.

Again people might say they are bad for health and not safe ,but if well educated in how to use them properly the risk is same as taking aspirin or any risk in life in general . And no evidence that bad for health ,
infact the opposite if use them in correct way and the
right moderation.

I personally looking forward to the day ,if ever
happens when media/society dont shone the use of
p.e.d's anymore and if are an athlete in the
spotlight dont have to lie or be seen to condem them .

 

[jayo1980]

Ever wondered why some sprinters take afew years away from it and come back stronger and faster than ever.

well aslong as dont get tested in this period by saying giving up track or lost interest or even been banned and frees you up to take p.e.d's and train just as hard as ever.Then stop taking them when ready to race again safe in knowing all drugs are out of body.

If ever taken steroids before know that when come off them ,mighten keep all of gains in muscle mass or size nor if sprinter do you want to .But you can keep up to 80-90% of strength gains and speed gains as in fast
twitch muscle fibre.Then when you do return to track you are now faster/stronger than ever were before.

AN obvious canditate for this is chambers , who returns to track faster than ever and more ripped , after his ban / retirement from track .
Makes you wonder why more athletes dont do this , i
guess because pretty obvious if suddenly come out
of nowhere ,what your up to. Maybe why people in know
in uk athletics tryed and got him banned from olympics.

Was carl lewis saying lately that tyson gay took a
year out and came back faster than ever ,i'm not sure will have to read it again.

 

[Observer]

There has never been an African sprinter, living and training in Africa, to run 100m faster than 10 seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thus, it would seem that this is a socio-economic thing.

Adult black and white American men have the same testosterone levels. Earlier studies were not using comparable population samples. Black men do have, however, higher levels of the FEMALE hormone estrogen. Mexican-American men have higher testosterone levels than whites and blacks.

[url]http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/jc.2007-00 28v1[/url]

"Serum Estrogen, but not Testosterone Levels Differ between Black and White men in a Nationally Representative Sample of Americans

...Previous studies comparing hormone levels by race might have been limited by size, restricted age variation, or lack of representation of the general population.
...
Results: After applying sampling weights and adjusting for age, percent body fat, alcohol, smoking, and activity, testosterone concentrations were not different between non-Hispanic blacks (n=363; geometric mean 5.29 ng/mL) and non-Hispanic whites (n=674; 5.11 ng/mL; p>0.05) but was higher in Mexican-Americans (n=376; 5.48 ng/mL). Non-Hispanic blacks (40.80 pg/mL) had a higher estradiol concentration than non-Hispanic whites (35.46 pg/mL; p<0.01) and Mexican-Americans (34.11 pg/mL, p<0.01). Non-Hispanic blacks (36.49 nmol/L) had a higher SHBG concentration than non-Hispanic whites (34.91 nmol/L; p<0.05) and Mexican-Americans (35.04 nmol/L).

Conclusions: Contrary to the postulated racial difference, testosterone concentrations did not differ notably between black and white men. However, blacks had higher estradiol levels. Mexican-Americans had higher testosterone than whites, but similar estradiol and SHBG concentrations. Given these findings, it may be equally, if not more important to investigate estradiol as testosterone in relation to diseases with racial disparity."Edited by: Observer

 

[Observer]

The speed things is interesting, but in some ways not so difficult to understand. The black physique is not necessarily made to run fast, but it IS made to dissipate heat --- longer thinner limbs and smaller thinner torso. White physiques of the northern European variety are somewhat more adapted for retaining heat --- proportionally shorter thicker limbs, and a larger thicker torso. Note that long limbs are not necessarily advantageous in themselves, unless there is sufficient strength to power these longer levers. In fact, it seems to be usually the case that the peoples of the world that have long limbs do not put on muscle very easily. (This is even noticeable in breeds of cattle and their geographical origins.)

Now, if you take these basic physique types and add a bunch of muscle, what happens? The thin limbs of the black person now become strong enough to carry the muscular, but smallish torso rapidly. Adding a similar amount of muscle to the northern European makes an upper body that is like a bull.

This genetics vs. environmental debate is only in its infancy, I think. Most of the DNA sequence is considered "redundant", but my guess is that it is not redundant, but rather that it only expresses itself in certain environmental situations. Once these environmental situations are encountered, these characteristics are indeed passed down to the offspring as if they are actually genetic and determined strictly by DNA --- but they are not. Rather, certain genes are expressed because at the various critical stages of development in the mother's womb there is a certain hormonal environment that is encountered --- and the genetic expression is thus "set" for the lifetime of that offspring unless some major environmental stress factor is encountered. The offspring of the offspring will in their turn thus encounter this same environment while developing in the womb.

One of the more interesting books I've read on this is Susan Crockford's "Rythms of Life: Thyroid Hormone & the Origin of the Species --- A 21st century way of thinking about domestication, evolution & human health that goes beyond genes". The difference between a domestic and non-domestic animal is surprisingly little in a strictly DNA genetic sense. Also, I think this "hormonal expression theory" sheds some light on the differences between the various human racial groupings. But that is maybe a topic for another thread.Edited by: Observer

 

[jayo1980]

well then can you or anybody explain the disappearence of top-class white sprinters over past two
decades which seems to only be getting worse.

 

[Guest]

There has never been an African sprinter, living and training in Africa, to run 100m faster than 10 seconds. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thus, it would seem that this is a socio-economic thing.

Adult black and white American men have the same testosterone levels. Earlier studies were not using comparable population samples. Black men do have, however, higher levels of the FEMALE hormone estrogen. Mexican-American men have higher testosterone levels than whites and blacks.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/jc.2007-00 28v1

"Serum Estrogen, but not Testosterone Levels Differ between Black and White men in a Nationally Representative Sample of Americans

...Previous studies comparing hormone levels by race might have been limited by size, restricted age variation, or lack of representation of the general population.
...
Results: After applying sampling weights and adjusting for age, percent body fat, alcohol, smoking, and activity, testosterone concentrations were not different between non-Hispanic blacks (n=363; geometric mean 5.29 ng/mL) and non-Hispanic whites (n=674; 5.11 ng/mL; p>0.05) but was higher in Mexican-Americans (n=376; 5.48 ng/mL). Non-Hispanic blacks (40.80 pg/mL) had a higher estradiol concentration than non-Hispanic whites (35.46 pg/mL; p<0.01) and Mexican-Americans (34.11 pg/mL, p<0.01). Non-Hispanic blacks (36.49 nmol/L) had a higher SHBG concentration than non-Hispanic whites (34.91 nmol/L; p<0.05) and Mexican-Americans (35.04 nmol/L).

Conclusions: Contrary to the postulated racial difference, testosterone concentrations did not differ notably between black and white men. However, blacks had higher estradiol levels. Mexican-Americans had higher testosterone than whites, but similar estradiol and SHBG concentrations. Given these findings, it may be equally, if not more important to investigate estradiol as testosterone in relation to diseases with racial disparity."

Might wanna check out Nigeria's sub10.00 sprinters. Guess what?

 

[Observer]

Who does Nigeria have that is sub-10? I mean, actually living and training there (and thus not part of the socio-economic system where an underclass can benefit from the work and technology of the middle and upperclass --- which seems to be almost a requirement for success in some sports).

Does Fasuba actually train from his homeland? I kind of put an asterisk on his run behind Gatlin. It was kind of a weird race, Gatlin coming from way behind and still setting a WR.

I believe Frankie Fredericks lived and trained in Namibia, but he is mixed race, and so let's set him aside for a bit.

Anyway, I know you're very knowledgeable, so if you have a time to put together a list of African runners who actually live and train in their homelands, I think it could make for a good discussion.

Another reason I think that these things may be more socio-economic than might appear from visual appearance of black and white, is that the white junior runners do very well --- in spite of the fact that whites tend to mature later. In my mind, this indicates that when the athletes are on an equal footing --- basically, when they're still under the relatively similar setting of being under the umbrella of Dad and Mom --- then the whites do well. However, when they become older, there is the tendency for whites to become part of the working, productive economy, while the underclass (not necessarily black, but by necessity some kind of minority) stays in the children's world, but now sucks up the resources of the state rather than Mom and Dad.

I'm not sure how strong the socio-economic factor is, but the more I look around the world, this idea becomes stronger.

 

[Guest]

Who does Nigeria have that is sub-10? I mean, actually living and training there (and thus not part of the socio-economic system where an underclass can benefit from the work and technology of the middle and upperclass --- which seems to be almost a requirement for success in some sports).

Does Fasuba actually train from his homeland? I kind of put an asterisk on his run behind Gatlin. It was kind of a weird race, Gatlin coming from way behind and still setting a WR.

I believe Frankie Fredericks lived and trained in Namibia, but he is mixed race, and so let's set him aside for a bit.

Anyway, I know you're very knowledgeable, so if you have a time to put together a list of African runners who actually live and train in their homelands, I think it could make for a good discussion.

Another reason I think that these things may be more socio-economic than might appear from visual appearance of black and white, is that the white junior runners do very well --- in spite of the fact that whites tend to mature later. In my mind, this indicates that when the athletes are on an equal footing --- basically, when they're still under the relatively similar setting of being under the umbrella of Dad and Mom --- then the whites do well. However, when they become older, there is the tendency for whites to become part of the working, productive economy, while the underclass (not necessarily black, but by necessity some kind of minority) stays in the children's world, but now sucks up the resources of the state rather than Mom and Dad.

I'm not sure how strong the socio-economic factor is, but the more I look around the world, this idea becomes stronger.

None of these sub10ers from Nigeria trained here in the USA.


Francis Obikwelu....ran a sub10.00 before his Portugal days


Deji Aliu


Seun Ogunkoya


Uchenna Emedolu


The we had..


Chidi Imoh.10.00 Missouri


Daneil Effiong...Lubbock


Olapade Adenikin...UTEP


Davidson Ezinwa...Azusa


Edited by: Black Ace

 

[Observer]

Francis Obikwelu....ran a sub10.00 before his Portugal days
Deji Aliu
Seun Ogunkoya
Uchenna Emedolu
The we had..
Chidi Imoh.10.00 Missouri
Daneil Effiong...Lubbock
Olapade Adenikin...UTEP
Davidson Ezinwa...Azusa

OK, thanks, that's a good list. I hate to be pushy, but what were the best times of Obikwelu, Aliu, Ogunkoya, Emedolu (while living and training in Nigeria --- not Europe, USA, etc.)?Edited by: Observer

 

[Observer]

I looked them up:
100m200m
Obikwelu9.97 ?
Aliu&n bsp;9.9520.25

Ogunkoya9.92* (at altitude)
Emedolu 9.97&n bsp;20.31

Nigeria has also had its share of doping scandals, disqualifying several relay teams.

These are very fast times, but not really out of the range of the caucasian and Asian sprinters. Nigeria is a big country.
The 200m times are not so great, although I didn't research to see if other 200m specialists may have had better times.

 

[Kali]

obikwelu has been based in Portugal since he was a teenager (from 16?) so he definately did not run 9.97 while training in Nigeria.

The BCC ran a series in the UK a while back looking at what part genetics compared to environment played in the way we are. One of the topics it looked at was sprinting using Colin Jackson (former WR holder at 100m hurdles)as an example.

Part of the program looked at why sprinters from West Indian backgrounds are successeful. One university researcher said they had identified the gene responsible for sprint ability & its present in 95% of Jamaicians. Game over you would think.

But the same gene is present in 75% of Europeans so other things being equal you would expect to see 4 European sprinters for every 5 Jamaican sprinters. But you don't see this. Therefore the difference is not just down to genetics.

The same program them looked for other factors as to why Jamaica produces a lot of sprinters & the conclusion was its down to environment, basically they are encouraged at every opportunity & being a sprinter carries a lot of kudos from an early age (national high school meets get crowds of 30,000).

 

[white lightning]

Excellent post Kali. I would love to have watched that program. I'm still trying to watch the BBC Sprint Progam from around a 1/2 year ago. I can't find it anywhere. It has Craig Pickering, Simeon Williamson, H.A.Aierty, and Edgar I belive. It follows them on and off the track for a full year. If anyone has a link to this, or a copy, pleasse let me know. Society influences have more to do with this than the physical factors and I have argued this for a long, long time. We should post a link to that progam Kali if you can find it.

 

[mastermulti]

here's a story of an Australian study of the gene ACTN3 that throws some
light on thr subject. Well worth the read I think!


http://www.genetic-future.com/2008/08/gene-for-jamaican-spri nting-
success-no.html?showComment=1219330800000

 

[devans]

obikwelu has been based in Portugal since he was a teenager (from 16?) so he definately did not run 9.97 while training in Nigeria.

The BCC ran a series in the UK a while back looking at what part genetics compared to environment played in the way we are. One of the topics it looked at was sprinting using Colin Jackson (former WR holder at 100m hurdles)as an example.

Part of the program looked at why sprinters from West Indian backgrounds are successeful. One university researcher said they had identified the gene responsible for sprint ability & its present in 95% of Jamaicians. Game over you would think.

But the same gene is present in 75% of Europeans so other things being equal you would expect to see 4 European sprinters for every 5 Jamaican sprinters. But you don't see this. Therefore the difference is not just down to genetics.

The same program them looked for other factors as to why Jamaica produces a lot of sprinters & the conclusion was its down to environment, basically they are encouraged at every opportunity & being a sprinter carries a lot of kudos from an early age (national high school meets get crowds of 30,000).

I saw a program about Jackson - could have been the same one. It had done a kind of DNA or genetic analysis of him. He had quite a high percentage of indegenous carib ancestry - about 10% I think. Could be a factor. Plus he was about 12 - 15% white.

 

[waterbed]

when I Read 12-15% white I tought that musst be higher
I thought like 55% sub saharan african 10%? native and 35 % white
I looked it up and I was pretty close.Im most of the time pretty close admixtures(except admixtures white/black under 20% are sometimes difficult to see in Phentype)East asian admixture you see easier. He is 55% sub saharan african 38% white and 7% native

http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/colin- jackson.shtml

My prediction +/-
beyonce :black52% white30%native18%
Alicia Keys :white 54% black40% 6% native?east asians (small admixture are guessing)
Jeremiah wright 30% black and the rest white with maybe a little bit native,but I know none of his parents is white(totally).his skin is lighter then average white person in some pictures.
http://theblacksentinel.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/minister .jpg

 

[ToughJ.Riggins]

Tracing heritage is interesting because it is always divisible by twos. We trace our heritage through powers of twos 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512. An interesting thing is that I actually have my family tree traced all the way back to the 512 line the great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandparents. Both my grandfathers hired a researcher to do it and it cost them a fair bit of money.

But you may be on to something Waterbed on the fact that a mix of white and black genes may be advantageous to sprinting. Most Jamaicans are part white I believe. I still think if we look back at history and the fewer amount of blacks competing that blacks still have a "slight" advantage over whites over 100 meters, but they do not over 10, 20, 25 yards. They also do not have an advantage at 400 meters and above or vertical jumping.

100 meter track speed is irrelevant on turf in pads where strength, balance, short area burst burst and cutting ability is more important than 100 meter speed on a track surface. Peyton Hillis certainly has what it takes to run the ball in the NFL and breaks tackles like it's nobodies business, but I bet he only runs 100 meters in the 11 second range.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins

 

[mastermulti]

right on time was the research I saw last night about hurdler Colin
Jackson's DNA pedigree.

55% sub-saharan black
38% european
7% amerindian which (he was amused to find) accounts for his slightly
mongel looks

Now we know Daley Thompson and Dan O'Brien have 50% (i think)
european blood so the mix seems to work very well in at least some
instances. I guess there's no reason why the "lucky ones" can't inherit the
best of athletic genes from both sides