Peyton Hillis

Discussion in 'New York Giants' started by backrow, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. warhawk46

    warhawk46 Guru

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    And then the caste system reminded everyone that the PTB would not let a white man dominate the NFL. Craig James was supposed to be the last running back to hit the 1,000 yard mark. So Alstott was turned into s short yardage back. This after he was an all Big Ten running back who still, I believe, owns the Purdue rushing record.
     
  2. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Great point. To add to that, Eddie George is considered "great", since he ran for over 10,000 career yards, but he had a 3.6 YPC average for his career. Alstott also usually ran without a teammate put in a FB role to lead block for him since he WAS the FB. It could have been ideal to run a power formation with him. Also, Alstott had complete game manager Shaun King as his QB to counter balance the attack for some of the years he was used the most. Tampa didn't have a great offense when he was there. They were known for their great defenses.

    My opine: Stick Hillis in a great system for his skill and he averages low 5 YPC (mid to high 4 YPC in an average situation), Stick Alstott in a great system for his skill and he averages high 4 YPC and low 4 YPC in an average system I'd say. Alsott could have had a storied career as a power back if he only had the right skin tone.Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  3. snow

    snow Mentor

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    Alstott was screwed coming out of high school. There is a quote from him
    about how no school wanted to recruit him at tailback, just at fullback.



    technically Purdue recruited him to play fullback..... but they did use him as both a rusher and
    blocker, but he was still labeled a "fullback" his entire college career
    even though he left as the all time rushing leader, its kind of like the
    same way white guys at Navy who line up a few yards closer to the los
    in the triple option are called fullbacks yet blacks at Georgia Tech in
    the same offense lined up in the same spot are called runningbacks, like
    Jonathan Dwyer the other year who was drafted as a tailback, much
    different from Kyle Eckel who was only used as a fullback his entire NFL
    career, which would explain why he never was able to stick with a team. Also, the same way Peyton Hillis was considered a fullback out of high school because he technically had a few plays where he blocked, but so did Matt Forte, a big back who occasionally lined up at fullback out of the i formation in high school.



    First his college coach was trying to find out every passing play for a
    fullback, but he wound up lining Alstott both in the fullback spot and
    halfback spot, in the i formation and split back set with another back
    as well as halfback in single back formations. The guy he blocked for
    on occasion was Corey Rogers, who had close to 150 carries two years in
    row. Sometimes Rogers blocked for him as well, but wasn't much of a
    blocker, so the offense was kind of at a disadvantage when he did, like
    playing with 10 men on the field. So Alsott was not only bulked up in
    college, he blocked for Rogers over a dozen plays a game as well getting
    20 to 25 carries himself. Not to mention pass blocking and receiving
    out of the backfield. True definition of a workhorse. Still able to set the rushing record in that situation.



    Its how he should of been used in Tampa, with Dunn getting less so the
    carries were at least more even. Dunn was really good but the smaller
    back is supposed to be the change of pace with the bigger guy getting
    more carries. The only years Alstott had slightly more carries was when
    Dunn was doing poor, like 2.8 ypc in 01 and 3.2 in 99. If they had more of a balance, its possible that Dunn wouldn't have been worn down those seasons.

    DWFs always
    use Dunn as the excuse as why Alstott was never a feature back, but
    Dunn was gone after 2001, and Alstott was coming off of a season where
    he averaged 4.1 ypc. You have to remember, like Hillis, Alstott wasn't
    in an ideal situation. The qb play was horrible for the most part, in
    99 they had Trent Dilfer and Shaun King playing, not to mention some guy
    named Eric Zeier starting 1 game. TJR it was actually Dilfer that played for most of Alstott's
    career, with Shaun King coming in for 1 year, and Dilfer was the definition of a game managing qb at best (dwfs always say well Dilfer won a Superbowl to justify that you don't need a good qb to win).

    The only year they had
    good quarterback play was 2001 (before Chucky) with Brad Johnson, the first time a qb
    completed 60 percent or more of his passes (Dilfer was always in the
    50% range) and threw for 3,000+ yards (the team usually averaged
    somewhere around 2500 yards a year before that, and thats with the
    backs getting 600 to 700 yards receiving). Coincidentally the same year they had good qb play, Alstott had his highest ypc or his career, 4.1, and he was still pretty much used primarily as a short yardage/goal line back, but with Dunn avging 2.8 he was put in slightly better situations running for a short period. This kind of shows just how elite Hillis is, because Alstott was a great back and wouldve averaged a higher ypc used differently/ on a better team, but Hillis has been able to average at least in the 4 ypc no matter what the situation. I agree Hillis would definetly avg at least a 5 ypc in an ideal situation. I think Alstott wouldve been mid 4.

    Speaking of Brad Johnson, quite the "odd" career. Did pretty well as a starter for the Vikings, throwing 44 tds to 27 interceptions, then replaced by an old Cunningham who threw more interceptions than tds the next year, then went to Washington and had some good years, threw for 4,000 yards one year there, then replaced by quotaback Tony Banks, who I believe holds the record for most fumbles in a seasonn, not sure, then he went to Tampa where he had some decent seasons. 72-53 record as a starter completing at least 60 percent of his passes 13 years in a row, only other qb to do that is Peyton Manning. Yet this Superbowl winning qb never gets any respect, nor was he really allowed one bad season before getting kicked off a team (his record the last year in Washington was 8-8).



    If you watch the film on Alstott, pretty much the only carries he gets
    that weren't obvious running situations, were 20 yards away from the
    endzone, so if you look at his highlights he has a ton of runs that
    couldve been longer if it were further away from the endzone. His top end speed wasn't great but he had elite burst and was very shifty, even for a guy that was carrying extra weight. But we all know what Chucky did to him. Used him even less in situations that weren't goal line/ short yardage the first year and then barely used him at all after that.

    So yeah, pretty much his entire career he was labeled a fullback, but never was. Even went to pro bowls as one, even though he insisted he wasn't a fullback. Luckily for Hillis there is this site and information spreading on the web, so more people are waking up, and more people defending the fact that he is a halfback and the fact that there have been guys with similar size, most were less talented who have been feature backs. Maybe it will help with his situation next year, if it doesn't there will definitely be more people speaking out.

    Edited by: snow
     
  4. warhawk46

    warhawk46 Guru

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    He might have insisted he wasn't a fullback because he knew he was talented enough to be the primary running back, but the PTB made sure he WAS a fullback in the NFL. He just got to run it quite a bit more than the average fullback does. But (not)oddly enough, not quite enough to put up 1,100-1,200 yards seasons. They made sure of that.
     
  5. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Point taken on Shaun King. I thought I remembered him being the QB for at least two years when Alstott was being used much more- with Dungy- before Gruden came in and reduced Alstott's role. Alstott could have had Jerome Bettis or Eddie George type career rushing yard totals with better YPC numbers. I could have seen Alstott having a 10,000 yard career with something like a 4.2 YPC career average in Tampa if he was used correctly.

    Hillis is fabulous. It was phenomenal that he averaged 4.4 YPC in Cleveland last year with just the benefit of a good left side of the o-line and a pretty good FB, but basically every other problem you could mention with the offense. Michael Turner averaged 4.1 YPC last year- in I'd say- a better situation- and Chris Johnson was at 4.3 in a similar situation of difficulty to post good YPC to Hillis. Ray Rice was at 4 YPC and Steven Jackson at 3.8 YPC. Mind you, some of these guys didn't have their best years, but they are considered "freakish talents" by the media and fans and Hillis was considered just an athletic FB before this year. When Hillis was in an ideal situation in Denver he averaged 5.3 YPC while being used as the starting tailback- and was getting better each game it seemed. Hillis is the real deal.

    I have been starting to think of Warrick Dunn as a good comparison for Justin Beaver at tailback. Dunn was a pretty good scatback in the NFL, but never was Pro Bowl caliber. I agree with your comparisons of Nate Kmic to Kevin Faulk and Danny Woodhead to Marshall Faulk snow. BTW, I always read your posts all the way through when I'm reading this forum. There are always lots of great points in them!
     
  6. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

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    From Weenieworld. However, there is a very good chance that Hardesty will get injured again as he was rarely healthy at Tennessee, or just plain out stink:

    New coach Pat Shurmur indicated Friday that he likes the idea of a two-back tandem featuring Peyton Hillis and Montario Hardesty (ACL surgery). This does nothing to allay concerns about Hillis' fantasy value after a late-season fade and the departure of coach Eric Mangini. Shurmur's version of the West Coast offense will be based on "two backs together," keeping both runners fresh deep into the season. Hillis will enter the season as the starter, with Hardesty as a complement. Hillis owes a good deal of last year's fantasy success to volume, which will be more elusive this time around. He's headed toward RB2 territory.
     
  7. Colonel_Reb

    Colonel_Reb Hall of Famer

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    I sure hope Hardtostay (on the field) bows out early again. Those idiots at weirdoworld make me sick!
     
  8. Riddlewire

    Riddlewire Master

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    Another article with a slight re-spin of the coach's words.

    I guess Evan Moore has been handed his walking papers. Or his "hit the bench, whitey!" papers.
    And two backs "in the backfield together" definitely has a different meaning than a two-back rotation. I guess we'll have to see what they plan to do. But, honestly, Peyton's playing time can only decrease from last year. So this won't be a great outcome for him, even if it's better for the team (and since I'm not a fan of any team, I don't give a holy flying fück about what's good for the Browns).
     
  9. Van_Slyke_CF

    Van_Slyke_CF Mentor

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    Peyton's carries will probably decrease next year. I just hope he can get enough for another 1000+ yard season.
     
  10. warhawk46

    warhawk46 Guru

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    He might have fewer carries next year, maybe by twenty-five but if they upgrade the right side of the line (the black guard and tackle) and add a legitimate receiver or two (would love to see Kevin Walter in Cleveland) via free agency or the draft his YPC will rise by half a yard at least!<div>
    </div><div>It is absolutely amazing that he averaged the highest YPC of all four starting RBs in the AFC North despsite Cleveland having, by far, the least offensive skill talent.</div>
     
  11. backrow

    backrow Hall of Famer

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    and so it starts... from rotoworld:

    Tony Grossi of the Cleveland Plain Dealer believes that the Browns will not bring back free agent FB Lawrence Vickers.
    Vickers is one of the better lead blockers in the game, but may be getting phased out due to the Browns' West Coast offense. Grossi says that the Browns will use Peyton Hillis as their fullback next season, perhaps as a way to get both Hillis and Montario Hardesty on the field at the same time.
     
  12. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    OMG.... The whole Cleveland offense will be reduced to ten touches or less? Let's hope that this is wishful thinking from Debbie Downer.com.... [​IMG]
     
  13. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

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    Okay, Tony Grossi has gone to the top of my list. Even under the Caste System, a suggestion like that is pretty bold.

    If they attempt to move Hillis to FB, he has to refuse. If they insist, he needs to hold out and make the issue public.
     
  14. backrow

    backrow Hall of Famer

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    Holmgren is already reportedly excited to have Hillis and Hardesty in the same background... guess what their roles are gonna be...
     
  15. warhawk46

    warhawk46 Guru

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    I hope he gets pissed off enough to DEMAND he play tailback. Black players do that all the time. It's time for white players to stick up for themselves. Hillis had one of the best-5 performances by a running back in the entire NFL last year....<div>
    </div><div>Rotoworld is trash; I find this hard to believe. Not after what he did this year. It happened to him before in Denver (being put as a fullback in 09 after dominating as a RB the last few games of 08 as a rookie) and he subsequently was traded and his dominance as a RUNNING BACK led to his former coach in Denver getting fired.</div>
     
  16. White Power

    White Power Mentor

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    I think is BS for one reason Hardesty will suck at runningback, and the new coach is going to want to win. Mc Dumbass did not play the best player and he was FIRED. No coach want to get fired no matter how many brotha's he keeps playing.
     
  17. Van_Slyke_CF

    Van_Slyke_CF Mentor

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    We know they will try to use Hillis as the primary FB next season. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the affletes they want to use at HB will get hurt.
     
  18. snow

    snow Mentor

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    the only way they should be on the field together is in a split back set, like Deuce and Reggie for the Saints in 2006 (Deuce ran for over 1,000 and Reggie had over 1,000 rushing and receiving, his only decent season). Hardesty is the "speed demon" (4.49) that fans kept wanting to replace Arian Foster with at Tennessee, but he could never stay healthy, and Foster kept producing. Hillis is better than Foster, he just isn't lucky to be on an team that is excellent at the zone-blocking scheme, the guy who runs it worked under Shanahan, the Texans also have Andre Johnson who stretches the field as well as Walter, and a bunch of tight ends that produce whenever called upon. Instead he is on a team where he was no real receiving threat besides himself and went through 3 different quarterbacks, a has been, a rookie and a never was. I have heard fans wanting a new qb even though Colt McCoy showed promise in that situation. Not to mention, Hillis had the some of the worst play calling ever. Instead of doing smash mouth football behind the left side and daring teams to stop them, the coordinator started to get cute, "hey they think we are going to run it to the left since that is the only part of the line that can block, lets run to the right out of shotgun formation". They could have ran left all season long and teams wouldve still had a hard time stopping it. Other teams have done that in the past. Its old school but it works when you have a linemen like Joe Thomas. Not to mention screens to Hillis with a swarm of defenders around him, he can make a few guys miss, but not 6. Hardesty wouldn't be able to either.
    Edited by: snow
     
  19. celticdb15

    celticdb15 Hall of Famer

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    I hope Mr. Grossi is incorrect in his statements. Like Don mentioned earlier I doubt this afflete takes his conditioning program to seriously considering he's been hurt throughout his career. Either that or he's more "fragile" than the media will have you believe. Peyton put your foot down. Don't let some oft injured medicore black runningback come in and take the starting spot that you DESERVE!
     
  20. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    This is maddening! What was Hillis supposed to do? Average 5 YPC in that pitiful offensive situation? Even Barry Sanders would have had trouble doing that. Hillis still led the AFC North in YPC and was above the overall league average for starting tailbacks which was about 4.3 (Hillis was at 4.4). PH was the 3rd most productive RB overall in the AFC (minus the fumbles). Hillis is IMO the 4th best RB in the league behind Jamal Charles, Chris Johnson and AP, yet is still in danger of receiving less than 200 carries next year. What a joke, this cultural Marxist anti-white Christian male society is!
     
  21. snow

    snow Mentor

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    Its sad we have to hope for a white player to get at least a little over 200 carries to crack 1,000. I think Hillis could crack it with only 200 with a 5 ypc. If they reduced his carries it would be nice to see him crack 1k with 170 carries averaging close to 6, he would have to avg 5.9 ypc, but with the team he is on and the division he is in, that would be hard to do. Plus they would probably be a lot of short yardage/goal line carries as well. If he were still with the Broncos (with Shanahan) or went to the Texans I think he could do that much easier. Hillis could come close to the 2k mark if they gave him enough carries. No white running back has been given that many carries except for Riggins, and he only got 300+ carries 2 seasons in his 14 year career, only 1 of those would have been enough to crack 2k if he wouldve averaged a higher ypc (pretty much all of the backs to crack it had around 360 to close to 400 carries except for Sanders and Simpson) I think Mark Van Eeghan had 1 season with a little over 300, both he and Riggins had a lot of short yardage/goal line carries and had other backs that got carries, so not the ideal situation for a high ypc. The only year Riggins had over 350 carries, he scored 24 touchdowns.

    They might use the fumbling thing against him for reducing his carries, even though Peterson never had it used against him (18 in 2 years), and I think Tiki Barber fumbled 9 times for 4 years straight. Ahmad Bradshaw had 7 with lost and I think Cedric Benson had 7 as well last year. The only problem he might run in to is running harder to make the most out of every carry which will lead to fumbling if they reduce his role. Its kind of the way he ran last year, trying to prove too much, carrying 6 or 7 guys for a couple of inches, playing injured, missing almost 0 snaps. As soon as he did let Mike Bell come in for a decent amount of time to get some rest the linemen says they think Mike Bell could be cracking 100 yard games. I think he was well aware of the situation that white runningbacks face, because he was pretty wreckless at times.

    I would only compare his ypc last year to other backs in the division. If he were in another division it would have been higher, even with the situation he was in. They had a real tough schedule and lets face it, the competition in the NFL is not even in every division, divisions like AFC west and NFC West are much easier to run against. 5 of the teams Hillis faced landed top 10 in rush defense (ypc), 2 being the Ravens and Steelers. 3 of those in the top 5, with the Steelers at number 1 overall. So that is almost half the season against teams with a top 10 rushing defense.

    Ray Rice had a great year in 09 with 5.3 ypc and barely averaged 4 ypc in '10, thats if you round up. I think it was 3.97. Mendenhall averaged 4.6 in 2009 and only 3.9 last. I think the out of division games they had were against NFC North and AFC West in 09. One of the teams Mendenhall padded his stats in '10 with 7 ypc was Tampa Bay, Hillis only 9 carries against them. Ray Rice only had 2 100 yard games, one was against Denver, a team the Browns didn't play. Not to mention Rice and Mendenhall are at an advantage, they only have to face ONE tough defensive team in their division in each other twice a year. Hillis has to face BOTH the Ravens and the Steelers, so 4 tough games automatically. Benson averaged 3.5 ypc for comparison, with 4.2 the year before.

    Next season seems like an ideal time to get a bunch of carries, they are scheduled to play some of the weaker defensive teams, such as the Seahawks, Colts, Rams and Cardinals. Those should be easy for them. I don't see Hardesty holding up for 4 games against the Ravens and Steelers.

    Its a worrying situation, I mean Hillis was used to promote ticket sales and is a fan favorite, but so was Mike Alstott. If there is a season I am hoping for at least 200 carries.
     
  22. ToughJ.Riggins

    ToughJ.Riggins Hall of Famer

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    Good post snow. If I had to rank who the most efficient tailbacks in the league would be in YPC with the same ammount of carries in an equally ideal situation for them I'd say:
    1. Jamal Charles
    2. Chris Johnson
    3. Danny Woodhead
    4. AP
    5. Peyton Hillis
    5b. Darren McFadden? Arian Foster?

    I'd predict Hillis would fare almost as good as Jamal Charles if he was still in Denver, but Hillis needs a top notch zone blocking scheme to be at his highest peak of YPC production where Charles can adapt to any offense. They are different types of backs with Hillis being more of a 1st down machine who gets lots of 15-30 yard runs with virtually no runs for loss where Charles is more explosive for the VERY big play, but lacks as much of a nose for the endzone- although he's powerful for his size. Hillis is clearly the league's top powerback and one of the best powerbacks for the big play too. He needs to improve ball security a bit.

    Woodhead would produce similar efficiency to Charles and Johnson with 200-250 carries as a speedy back, but he doesn't run quite as powerfully. I'd say a 200-250 rush per season workload would be ideal for Woody where 275-325 would be ideal for the other two.

    It amazes me how well our guys fare at tailback when so many like Jake Sharp, Hunter Furr, Nile Knapp, Cory McCaffrey, John Howell, Robbie Frey, Marc Mauro etc. usually get weeded out in lower levels. Truth is that EVERY position except CB IMO should be a half white position or more in this 75% white country. The blackest positions IMO should be CB: 55-60% black, FS: 45% black, RB: 40% black, most of the rest of the players at those positions in the NFL should be white!Edited by: ToughJ.Riggins
     
  23. warhawk46

    warhawk46 Guru

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    I still won't believe Hillis doesnt get at least 250 carries next year until it actually happens. For one, Hardesty must stay healthy for that to happen... I don't see it happening. The man is brittle.<div>
    </div><div>Secondly, Hardesty would have to show he is better than Peyton Hillis, which he is not. Holmgren is not my favorite guy, especially considering his affinity for black players, but he also is not entirely stupid and must realize that the NFL is going to be losing some popularity and to alienate the Cleveland fans who embraced Hillis would be career suicide unless Hardesty runs for 2,000 yards - which he won't.</div><div>
    </div><div>What you guys are seeing is racist Sportswriters writing what they WANT to happen, not what will happen.</div>
     
  24. whiteCB

    whiteCB Master

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    I honestly think Hillis is going to be fine next year with playing time.

    On April 1 I am making the proclamation that Hillis will be the Browns starting HB come week 1 of the 2011 NFL Season. Not only that but he will get 75% + of the carries during the year. He now has a full season's worth of talent on film that would be impossible for the new coach and even Holmgren to ignore. It is the NFL and they know full well the caste system but they also know its a WIN NOW league. If they want to be around in 4 years will they really use Hardesty?
     
  25. guest301

    guest301 Hall of Famer

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    I agree and he is also a huge fan favorite and the face of the franchise, it won't be easy to screw him out of his starting tailback job without the fans going nuts.
     

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