Jamaican Sprinting.

Discussion in 'Track & Field' started by Jamstar, May 12, 2011.

  1. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    Would you guys mind if I start another thread to discuss the questions you have about Jamaican sprinting because I really dont want to overshadow CL's thread.

    AS to answer your questions the Jamaica sprinting success in the last decade is not due to genetics ( that has always been a constant).

    its not due to new training methods (the truth is the training methods used in Jamaica were adapted from american coaches and brought to Jamaica by people such as Dennis Johnson and tweaked to suit local athletes).

    it is not due to a state run doping programme, if you look closely you will see that several different athletes from several different camps inside and outside of Jamaica doing well right now, ( lets get this straight Jamaica has had 13 consecutive quarters of decline, the guys that run Jamaica cant even piss straight much less fund and run a first world doping programme).


    now I know alot of guys were screaming BS when I rejected the state run doping programme theory but you got to understand that that sort of stuff is expensive and thats an expense that the government can neither afford or hide from the public.

    So whats the answer ?, its right under you noses and you guys discuss it here everyday.


    1. building the popularity of the sport and getting kids involved professionally at a young age.

    The popularity of the sport in Jamaica is well documented so no need to expound here, contrary to what some may say I think its the number 1 sport in Jamaica right now.

    Right now Jamaican kids start their careers as young as 3 years old and I'm being totally honest here, a track group takes 3-6 year olds to Florida each year to compete with other kids there. By time they turn 11 these kids are already being recruited to join high school teams that are club like in structure, so they develop a strong sense of professionalism from a very early age.

    2. Building the infrastructure.

    Before the world junior champs in 2002 Jamaica had one synthetic running track at the national stadium, right now we have 5 with plans to build 2-3 more in the short term.

    3. Building the club and institutions.


    Since the mid 90s we have had the establishment of a high performance centre in Jamaica and the expansion of Jamaica's sport college G.C. Foster which means more and better coaches in Jamaica.

    Also over the last few years Jamaican universities have been offer scholarships to student/athletes

    Before the year 2000 Jamaica had zero track and field clubs which meant that if you were born in Jamaica you had go to a overseas college on a scholarship to do track or quit track when you finished high school.

    The problem with this is that alot of Jamaican kids did not qualify academically for American colleges or they were late bloomers.

    With the establishment of 6-8 major clubs in Jamaica (MVP and Racers being the top 2) the kids who would have quit track at 18-19 now have a chance to compete after high school so the pool of world class athletes is naturally going to be deeper.


    Now I could expound on those much further but that is main things that have changed in the last decade and if the same approach is taken in any other country the results will be the same, an increase in the pool of world class athletes.
     
  2. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Some of the posts didn't make it here. Sorry guys. Please feel free to keep the discussion going. I would like to know Jamstars thoughts on Yohan Blake and his 3 month suspension for a banned substance not too long ago. Also there have been alot of positive tests with WADA from various Jamaican Sprinters and track athletes. They are not all clean just like the american sprinters are not all clean. Cheating goes on in every country whether people admit it or not.

    Even Victor Conte swears that the Jamaican Sprinters are cheating. He has nothing to gain by saying that. He knows what it takes as he helped sprinters to cheat with drugs. Even Carl Lewis says that things are not right in Jamaica. I myself have seen too many sprinters go from average to exceptional in a very short time. It reminds me of East Germany and the USA.
     
  3. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Here is one of the quotes from Carl Lewis on the worlds fastest man, Usain Bolt.

    "When people ask me about Bolt I say he could be the greatest athlete of all-time. But for someone to run 10.03 one year and 9.69 the next, if you don't question that in a sport that has the reputation it has right now, you're a fool. Period."Â￾
    Carl Lewis
     
  4. white is right

    white is right Hall of Famer

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    I think all of these points are valid, but you have to throw PED's into the mix too. Too many suspicious performance improvements that would be questioned if the people were from a nation that doesn't generally produce sprinters. Back in the early 90's China had "Ma's Army". The svengali type coach supposedly gave turtle soup to his female runners. A few years later investigators found out that it was an endurance drug cocktail. Chinese female runners have virtually dried up after the scandal.
     
  5. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    First of all, thanks for opening this thread (I was busy at a track meet here in Kingston for under 12 kids).

    Secondly, I'm not claiming that all Jamaican athletes are clean, it would be stupid of me to do so since I'm not with all the athletes 24/7.
    I am simply saying that there is no organised doping going on in Jamaica.

    I know all about Ma's army and the East German doping programme but there are major differences between those states and Jamaican athletes.
    The most glaring being the dramatic differences in resources.


    add to that the fact that those athletes spent most of their time in their home country and when they left home their performances dropped dramatically, while the Jamaican athletes spend months based in Europe and their peak performance happen away from home.

    Another difference is that those athletes were based at home in one camp while there are Jamaican Athletes doing well in several camps both inside and outside of Jamaica.



    Arthur Wint, George Rhoden, Herb Mckenly Les Laign, Donald Quarrie, Lennox Miller, Ray Stewart, Donavon Bailey and Ato Bolden, are a few of names from the past with Jamaican roots I would like to call at this time, research those names and tell me if Jamaicans have a genetic history of fast sprinting.

    LW Blake got busted for a tainted supplement and provided evidence to prove that he did not knowingly take any banned substance and that the makers of supplement included a banned ingredient in that supplement without his knowledge (the banned ingredient 4methyl-2examine was not included on list of ingredients on the label or on the website and it is a stimulant not a steroide).
    LW if you dont believe his recount of the chain of events then thats your right and I understand why you would not belive his story but its not my duty to be his defence counsel.


    Carl Lewis and Victor Conte would have more credibility in my eyes if it were not for their shady past, axe grinding actions and the fact that they are speaking having never been to Jamaica to see whats happening here, so tell me on what basis do they speak about a entire nations moral standards.


    Guys your welcome to come to Jamaica at anytime to see the top local based athletes train and you could assess their training methods for yourself.

    You could also have a couple days at the beach and have look at some of the sites, I guarantee you will enjoy your stay.
     
  6. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    Btw That meet I just got back from actually had 1260 athletes ( it actually had to be restricted to 90 of the best athletes from each of Jamaica's 14 parishes) was the 3-4 news item in all the local print and broadcast sports stories and had thousands of spectators at the event.

    One kid ran a 52.low 400 meter and a girl jumped 1.68 meter for the high jump.

    Now imagine if that level of attention and status were placed on track and field in France, I'm sure they would produce a couple more CL.


    Its not rocket science, widen the base, increase the pool and get the excitement going.
     
  7. mattharper

    mattharper Guru

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    For what its worth. I dont know if many Jamaican sprinters are doping or not. We will probably never know and yet so many top sprinters have been caught cheating the last 15 years. Ben Johnson, Justin Gatlin, Marion Jones, Kerron Clement, Dwain Chambersand so many others. The only white sprinters I can think of cheating the last 15 years were Ekaterina Thanou of Greece, Kostas Kenteris , a little known 200 meter sprinter Dean Capobianco and a Hungarian named Roland Nemeth.<div>I just find it hard with such a small population they can produce so mnay top knotch sprinters. Conversely I dont think white Americans have to few prospects in the sprints other than the fact that there is plenty of talent but most white Americans see there way to prosperity through education and dont pursue it all year. Look at white South Africa. They have a very small white population and yet have produced 3 men who have run 10.1 or better in the 100 meters the last 2 decades. Ruan Devries, Matt Sharp, and of course Morne Nagel. Now america with our vast talent pool has only produced Kevin Little. Most white american sprinters are only doing it in the spring as where in the inner cities there are programs in place to keep black kids running all year round. So I can see Jamstars argument that it starts early and they keep at it. Its the same with South Africa. Look at how many world class 400 meter hurdlers they have and many many up and coming 110 m high hurdle guys coming on. Its in their blood and they do it year round. Are all Jamaican sprinters doping. NO!!! Are some of them especially Asafa Powell, Yohan Blake, and Bolt. I wouldint bet against it. They cant all be clean.</div>
     
  8. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Not sure where Jamstar has dissapeared to but his boy just beat Gatlin in a new p.b. He has smashed his previous p.b.s over 100 &amp; 200 meters. The Jamaicans are coming. You should celebrate Jamstar.

    http://www.iaaf.org/news/kind=100/newsid=60032.html
     
  9. mastermulti

    mastermulti Mentor

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    he's just turned 21, 2 months Christophe's senior, so he is progressing well since almost dead heating with him in the 2008 world junior 200.
     
  10. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Somehow I doubt Jamstar will be back. I think he was only interested in Jamaican Track and Field for the most part.
     
  11. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    WL you would be wrong on that count, my purpose here is to track CL progress and if I have time to answer a couple questions.

    Look WL I know you guys are very sceptical about Jamaica (hell if I were in your place I would be too) but I have the advantage of being in Jamaica to see the back ground stuff.

    I know that Asafa Powell is actually a Choir boy and plays the guitar in his father's church (Reverend Powell and Mrs. Powell are the nicest couple you will ever meet).

    I know that Bolt cried the night before he was scheduled to run his first junior final because he was afraid he would be beaten by guys who were as much as 4 years older than him.

    I know that Shelly Ann is a Full time student, wife, athlete and has to get up at 4.30 in the morning to get to training 6 o clock then has classes at 10 and gym work at 4 in the evening.

    I know that 90% of all the athletes that join MVP puke their guts out after their first
    day of training.


    What the ashman is doing now is no suprise to me personally because last year at about this time of the year I got an email from a friend in Florida saying that he was putting up some major splits in training.

    Unfortunately for him he has had major injury problems over the last couple of years, including broken limbs and torren muscle so his progress has not been linear.

    Here is a little back ground to the MVP train schedule.

    Training starts in October.

    At this stage of the schedule the MVP athletes generally stay away from hard surfaces and train mostly on grass so as to minimize impact injuries, alot of overdistance and hill work is done at this point.

    Come January the athletes are given a little break from training bye competing in a few local relays and depending on how they look in training their programmes are adjusted up are down.
     
  12. mattharper

    mattharper Guru

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    Yes 90 percent puke their guts on the first day of training. Im not a psycholgist but Jamstar is a liar or good embellisher.
     
  13. mastermulti

    mastermulti Mentor

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    I think he's spot on actually, Why would you question it?

    That's an unacceptable way to treat a new contributor who puts a lot of thought and effort into his posts.
    We asked Jamstar to start the topic and you come on here to dis him?Edited by: mastermulti
     
  14. mattharper

    mattharper Guru

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    Im not trying to treat Jamstar rudely I just dont know how you can make such a bold statement unless he is attending every Jamaican sprint practice and actually witnessing it. I just dont believe evrey Jamaican sprinter right now is not juicing. I also not claiming that they all are but they produce a huge proportion of top sprinters from such a small country in a sport that is notorious for drug cheats from all countries.
     
  15. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    Matt most of the athletes that join MVP go directly from being high school athletes to training with pro athletes, thats a big jump and when that hammer drops on the first day chunks fall out.

    No I'm not at every training session but as you guys keep stating Jamaica aint that large and info gets out.


    Again I will state it, I am not here to convince anybody of the cleanness of any athlete, I'm here to track CL's progress and if I have some info to provide it.
     
  16. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Steve Mullings of Jamaica ran a 9.89 today for a new world lead. It still just suprises me that more people don't suspect ped usage when you have 5 or 6 guys on a tiny island running sub 9.90 and soon sub 9.80's. Even if the U.S. had that many elite guys, I would question it. Before long they will have around 10 guys running ridiculous times. Sorry but I just don't buy it.
     
  17. Observer

    Observer Mentor

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    DID YOU SEE WHAT ELSE OCCURRED IN THAT RACE? Fantastic! Jason Smyth, legally blind runner from Ireland, took 3rd in 10.22! In an international-class field!
     
  18. Observer

    Observer Mentor

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  19. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Yes that would be the same Mullings. They are going to be unbeatable with the times they are running. The relays will be a joke unless there is a dropped baton.






    I'm very happy to see Jason Smyth continue to improve. What an acheivment for a legally blind guy to run so close to 10 seconds flat. Where is Paul Hession at? He sure has been training late into the year. He needs to get some races under his belt soon.
     
  20. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    I suspect that soon this thread will into transform into one where accusations are flung wildly at every Jamaican.

    Look guys I have no problem with you having suspicions and stating those suspicions, I expected nothing less.

    I just thought that since I was here anyway I could provide some insight into training methods and sprinting technique.
     
  21. white lightning

    white lightning Hall of Famer Staff Member

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    Fair enough but you have to remember that both Blake and Mullings have already been caught and served their punishment. It seems likely that they could be doing it again.

    Speaking of cheaters. Dwain Chambers ran a 10.01 today and he is well into his 30's. I believe he is 33 already and he seems to have found the fountian of youth. Kind of like Linford Christie who used to run for England a few decades ago. Well Christie was proven to be a cheat. Chambers has already been busted once and it wouldn't suprise me to see him go down again.
     
  22. trackster

    trackster Mentor

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  23. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    Trackster if CL (any athlete really) wants to achieve his stated goals he has to do exactly this, get the strength to weight ratio right.
     
  24. Observer

    Observer Mentor

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    I stole this quote by j41181 from Lemaitre's thread:

    Jamstar, my comment is not directly related to Jamaican sprinting, but I thought that you might be able to lend some perspective. I agree with j41181's statement above, at least regarding White sprinters (although I speak in generalities here). It seems to me that if a White sprinter is trained at a high-volume, he will adapt quite well -- but will tend to transform into a long sprinter or even a middle distance runner. I am aware that some of Jamaica's top sprinters actually do some cross-country running in the fall and winter; not necessarily at a fast or high level, but distance running nonetheless. And, although Jamaica has a great sprinting tradition, this running success seems to rarely extend beyond 400 meters (although recently Jamaica has had some success at 800). So, my questions: Is the culture there sprint-crazy only? It would seem to me that an enthusiasm for the sprints would quite naturally overflow to other events. And if a Jamaican sprinter is trained at a high volume (as you mentioned earlier, the new guys puking), doesn't that tend to transform the runner into a longer distance person?

    I've heard it mentioned that the Jamaicans practice for X hours per day, and the thought that comes to my mind is: how is it possible that they can train at that volume, and not be transformed into endurance athletes?
     
  25. Jamstar

    Jamstar Newbie

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    Lets see if I can get all the questions.

    I dont belive that its true that if a white sprinter does alot of overdistance work he is automatically transformed into a long sprinter, I think its an issue of coaches pushing white sprinters into doing too much overdistance world.

    Why is this? I think alot of coaches have a 1 track mind,
    White Sprinter = longer sprinter.

    So once a white sprinter emerges he is pushed whether intentionally or unintentionally into the 200 or 400 (see CL).

    Right now the top coaches in Jamaica are look at CL as the biggest threat to Jamaican at 100 in the next 4-5 years yet his coach is saying he wont even run the event at the next olympics.

    Back to overdistance work, it is so beneficial on so many levels but the trick is knowing each athlete and their bodies and when the work load becomes too much.

    It improves endurance, fitnesss and if done right can actually provide the athlete with an extra bost in the short sprints.

    Too answer your other question, Athletics in Jamaica is pretty much all about sprinting but its starting to change.
     

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