Bitter Pele

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by bigunreal, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. bigunreal

    bigunreal Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,923
    I don't follow soccer much any more, so forgive me if I sound ignorant about the subject matter. I was inspired to post this after watching a story on ESPN about Barcelona's marvelous Lionel Messi, who scored 5 goals in a game yesterday.

    One of the commentators (again, don't know these guys) stated, "he is now the best soccer player of all time." They then kicked it back to the regular ESPN boys, and someone (again, couldn't catch who it is), said, "Uh, I guess he never heard of a guy named Pele."

    Then they superimposed some comments from Pele about Messi. Much like Calvin Murphy acted years ago, when Larry Bird came close to his record for most free throws in a row, Pele belittled Messi, and said there will never be another Pele, because "my parents closed the factory." Utter classlessness.

    Now just try and imagine any white athlete, in any sport, acting that way when a black was about to break their record, or was being suggested as the "greatest." We all know the white would scoff at his own abilities, and say something like, "well, I was never the kind of athlete HE is." The white would unquestionably be happy for him.
     
  2. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
    pele recently said that in order to be compared with him, messi would have to win the world cup first
    it makes no sense to say this, because pele was brazilian, so it was easier to win world cup for him
    for some of his world cup victories, all he had to do was watch the game from the bench (the 1962 world cup)
    what an accomplishment

    in my opinion, the only player that might be ahead of messi regarding his accomplishments is maradona
    because pele won world cups with what was seen as one of the best teams in history, while maradona won the world cup with a mediocre argentina team
    he also won the serie a (italian league) with napoli, not one the best club in italy
    maradona is ahead of pele in my opinion (and for a lot of people), the only question is will messi do better than maradona?
    and maybe messi already did better than maradona, when you look at that champions league when he humiliated real madrid in semi finals and then won the final against manchester united (season 2010-2011)

    and it's very hard to compare players, especially players from different eras
    pele mentionned that he scored more than 1200 goals during his career, but at that time players scored a lot more goals

    a quote from waterbed that was posted a while ago on that matter:

    (area= era i guess)
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012
  3. MilanClass

    MilanClass Guru

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Kalifornia
    American DWL's are the worst at this. They treat Pele like he's some mythical Jesus figure. No matter how good a player comes along in the future, they always mention that Pele was the BEST.

    Then I always ask them, "how many times have you seen him play or have seen any of his games on tape?" The answer is always "uuhhh.....no, I haven't". So typical.

    1) Pele NEVER played in Europe
    2) Pele played in an era where football wasn't as physical
    3) The level of competition today is far superior to what it was in Pele's day
     
  4. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
    FIFA plays a big role also into the propagation of the pele myth
    he and FIFA claim that he has scored more than 1000 goals during his career

    from pele himself:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...d-unless-score-thousand-goals-like-I-did.html

    but the problem is that a big part of these goals were scored in friendly matches
    if you look only at real matches (competitive club matches) he goes down to 653 goals
    and these were scored mainly in local club competition, like paulistao, with clubs from sao paulo only, because there was no national league in brazil

    and he only won 2 libertadores (the equivalent of champions league for south america) and is not in the records table for most goals scored, most cups won , ect

    then you have the 3 world cup that he won
    -during the first one (1958), he was too young (17 years old), he impressed but he was not brazil's dominant player, and brazil won
    he scored a lot in this tournament, but at that time there were more goals (the french just fontaine scored 13 goals in this tournament, an unbeaten record still today)
    -in the second, in 1962, brazil won the world cup, with garrincha being the star player, and pele was injuried for the whole tournament
    -in his 3rd world cup, in 1966, brazil didn't managed to qualify to the knock out phase: pele was at his best
    -for his 3rd world cup win, he was part of the 1970 brazil team, regarded as one of the best teams in history, and he was far from being the most influential player


    overall, i counted 13 matches played by pele in 4 world cups, and he scored 12 goals
    he was not that influential
    the brazilian ronaldo scored 15 goals in 3 world cups


    FIFA gave the award of "player of the century" to both maradona and pele
    it's a total joke and it reflects FIFA's lies
    the player of the century has to be the uruguayans hector scarone (forlan just beat his long standing record for most goals scored for uruguay) , or even better, nasazzi:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    but since FIFA decided to count the first 2 world cups (1924 and 1928) as olympic gold medals, scarone and nasazzi are left with only one world cup triumph, wich is ridiculous and does not reflect uruguay's incredible dominance in that era
    if you take the 1924 and 1928 competitions for what they were: world cups, then scarone and nasazzi won 3 world cups in a row, an incredible feat
    they decided to ignore uruguay's victories by giving this award to pele and maradona

    pretending that the 1924 and 1928 world tournaments organized by FIFA could be equivalent to the olympic games (so unimportant that i had to check who won it the last time, it was argentina over nigeria) is totally ridiculous
    they totally wrote this legendary uruguayan team off from soccer history
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  5. Europe

    Europe Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,642
    "ele recently said that in order to be compared with him, messi would have to win the world cup first "

    Why do you have to win the WC to be considered great? Messi has done almost nothing in the WC but he is still a great player. People say that Rooney can't be great because he has had poor WC's. A few games in the WC doesn't matter. George Best never played in the WC, but he is a great player. Maradona won the WC by cheating.


     
  6. Porthos

    Porthos Mentor

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2011
    Messages:
    520
    Location:
    California
    Pele is the most overrated player in the history of the game, for all the reasons mentioned above.

    In addition, Pele was always a media darling, later member of the FIFA establishment and today - Blatter's lapdog. He now travels the world as FIFA's "soccer ambassador".

    His interviews and predictions are invariably laughable. He predicted Colombia would win the 1994 world cup, an African nation would win the world cup before 2000 (we are still waiting...) and Nicky Butt would be the no.1 player of the 2002 world cup.

    I remember some years ago when FIFA conducted a worldwide poll on who was the greatest footballer of the 1900s. The overwhelming majority chose Maradona. However, FIFA - embarassed that their darling was voted second - decided to set up a grotesque panel of "friendly" journalists who promptly selected Pele. In a farcical ceremony Maradona had to share the title with this Blatter puppet.
     
  7. Rebajlo

    Rebajlo Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,501
    Location:
    N.S.W. - Australia
    Pele and Cassius Clay are the two greatest sporting frauds of the modern world. When we add Nelson Mandela, we have the Great Triumvirate of Black Idols before which the White race prostrates itself at the bidding of the Jewish puppet masters. Forget Michael Jackson or Whitney Houston - when any member of the Great Triumvirate pops his clogs, the media encomiasts shall babble themselves hoarse and literally run out of ink (or, in this age, wear out their keyboards) composing tearful, heart-rending panegyrics for these loathesome Negro "paragons". The "universal outpouring of grief" shall probably last for years. By the way, that most saintly of terrorists Nelson Mandela must have really suffered an unspeakably brutal, constitution-destroying imprisonment by the evil Whites of the "world's most oppressive regime" as he is still alive at the age of 93. Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

    Pele is easily the most annoyingly arrogant figure in sport. In my opinion, he even manages to outdo Clay, for at least slave boy Cassius doesn't unfailingly refer to himself in the third person (not that one can begin to comprehend anything which that punch-drunk cotton picker manages to slur). The frighteningly ugly Pele, however, does this constantly, as if he was some sort of deity.

    Pele's "dominance" purportedly stems from two points:

    (a) being the only player to "win" three World Cups; and

    (b) his supposedly "phenomenally unmatched" goalscoring record

    Let's have a closer look, shall we?

    As I've said countless times before, the three World Cup wins "statistic" is a load of bollocks as Pele was awarded a winner's medal for 1962 despite only playing in the first two group games, sustaining an injury in the second match against Czechoslovakia. That Brazil won the tournament without him proves just how "indispensable" the "world's greatest ever player" was. One can also safely say that Brazil would have won the 1970 World Cup without the services of the so-called "King". On the other hand, it is generally openly acknowledged that had Diego Maradona not featured in Argentina's 1986 World Cup team there is absolutely no way that such an average side would have won the tournament. Maradona's 1986 achievements are, however, always justifiably overshadowed by his cheating in the quarterfinal against England.

    Speaking of World Cups, what if Pele - like George Best (Rebajlo's pick for the greatest player of all time :grin:) - had been born in Northern Ireland, a nation which plays its World Cup qualifiers against European opposition and whose population during the 1960s and early 1970s was about 1.5 million. How many World Cups would Pele have won or, more to the point, how many finals tournaments would he have participated in? The answer, of course, is "none".

    Pele's "greatness" is "proven" by his apparently superhuman goalscoring record - a record which conveniently includes goals in exhibition matches and other "unofficial" fixtures. The very fact that such misleading figures are eternally quoted as "quantitative proof" of his superiority provides laughably transparent evidence of the deliberate creation and maintenance of the Pele myth.

    As others have stated, Pele never played club football in Europe - unlike, for example, Diego Maradona, Alfredo di Stefano, Lionel Messi, and George Best.
     
  8. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
    maradona about pele:
    "Pelé diz que eu fui melhor que ele, e eu lhe digo: 'Você tem razão'"
    Maradona, na Copa América na Venezuela

    http://globoesporte.globo.com/ESP/Noticia/0,,MUL61272-4271,00-FRASES+DA+SEMANA.html

    maradona, during the copa american in venezuela (2007)


    rooney also said that messi became the best in history, after his 5 goals against leverkusen:

    [​IMG]


    galliani, from ac milan, said that for him messi is the best ever, and he says that he saw pele and maradona playing:
    http://globoesporte.globo.com/futeb...dor-de-todos-os-tempos-diz-vice-do-milan.html


    another annoying thing with pele is his ridiculous hyping of black strikers from his club, santos
    he already said about robinho that he was going to be the best in the world one day, but we are still waiting....
    now he says neymar (santos) can be better than messi:
    http://globoesporte.globo.com/futeb...-neymar-e-melhor-que-messi-mais-completo.html
    in this article he says that neymar is better than messi, more skilled, can shoot with both feet ect

    maradona answered:
    http://www.sport24.co.za/Soccer/Maradona-takes-swipe-at-Pele-20111201

    and in the recent match between santos and barcelona (final of the clubs world cup), wich was advertised as the match between neymar and messi, messi scored 2 goals and santos was thrashed 4-0:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr51XQnwdGc

    a video with 222 goals from messi for barcelona:

    [video=youtube_share;4IlpOHoT7dw]http://youtu.be/4IlpOHoT7dw[/video]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    oh, and thanks for posting about these comparisons between messi and the great players of the past, because i realise that every media talk about this
    a lot of them mention pele
    i even came across the comment section of an english speaking website, where some dude said that the best player of all time was ronaldinho :icon_confused:
    i commented to say that ronaldinho was way inferior than ronaldo (the brazilian), and that it was commonly accepted
    then the guy answered " no ronaldinho is better"
    then i clicked on his facebook profile and i realised that the guy was malaysian or from one of these countries in asia
    these guys are so dumb, and they believe everything that the media tell them

    check out the argumentated answers they are able to give (my comment was about the black belgian witsel from benfica):

    [​IMG]
    ( don't worry, it's a fake facebook profile, fake name, it's just the name i use on the internet
    i have no real facebook profile)

    so i understand why european clubs want to have fans in asia, in europe we are not gullible enough
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  9. Rebajlo

    Rebajlo Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,501
    Location:
    N.S.W. - Australia
    frederic38 - Don't worry, Europeans are gullible enough - why do You think the sport is the mess that it is? :icon_idea:

    When it comes to Asians, talking football with those little twerps is an almighty waste of time. Those Western-brand-obsessed fools (who nevertheless despise Whites) are only interested in "glamour" clubs like Manchester United, Barcelona, Real Madrid and AC Milan - or any club which has signed an Asian of their own ethnicity...
     
  10. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
    yes, i stopped posting when i saw they were asians


    regarding pele's 1000 goals, romario recently scored more than 1000 goals during his career
    he has been criticized for counting goals from friendly matches and non-professional matches
    but what did pele?
    pele counted every goal scored with santos in exhibition matches
    his real amount of goals is 643


    roberto "dinamite", legendary vasco da gama striker, scored 702 goals with vasco, and more than 830 in his career

    [​IMG]

    he said that a lot of romario's goals came from training sessions turned into friendly matches for the statistics, that he would have scored more than 1000 goals also if they counted goals sxored during trainig sessions
    romario answered that pele counted goals scored against the army, and a goal scored while wearing a suit and a tie during wembley's demolition
    so he asked why he couldn't count his goals scored against teams from 3rd and 2nd division

    roberto dinamite scored more than pele during national competitions in brazil:
    http://www.netvasco.com.br/n/85972/...e-pele-na-artilharia-dos-brasileiros-190-a-99

    roberto dinamite scored 190 goals , and pele 90 (there was no brazilian league at that time but they counted the goals scored during the national competitions of then)


    also, carlitos from internacional scored 485 goals in 384 matches for internacional, that's a better ratio than pele
    he just played less matches because it was a different league (gaucho league) with less matches

    this reminds me of a player from a small country that scored more than messi and cristiano ronaldo in 2011
    http://football.indesit.com/eu/2012/01/11/the-story-of-aleksandrs-cekulajevs/
    you have to take in consideration the league they score in also :D
     
  11. MilanClass

    MilanClass Guru

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Kalifornia
    Don't forget his best prediction. He said Freddy Adu would be the next Pele when he saw him at age 14. Now Freddy Adu is 23 and mediocre MLS player.
     
  12. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
  13. Europe

    Europe Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,642
    Why do we have to sign in again to comment on the home page articles?

    Something is wrong with my password.​
     
  14. Don Wassall

    Don Wassall Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    23,917
    Location:
    Pennsylvania

    The V-Bulletin board software is separate software (programming) from the rest of CF. To comment on articles requires it's own sign up and log-in process with the site itself. You can use a different name and password for comments on articles if you want.
     
  15. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
  16. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
    i didn't know that pele himself said that di stefano was better than him:
    http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/news/newsid=1102922.html


    overall, i think that few people disagreed with the article about pele, a few brazilian fans, but not many
    and they couldn't prove the article wrong
    i loved how a brazilian pele worshipper tried to say that just fontaine was not a great player, while he is the best french player in history and one of the world's best of all times, without injury he would have accomplished much more

    i also loved how another brazilian said that rebajlo was "probably argentinian" because he thought that di stefano and messi were superior to pele :roll:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  17. Rebajlo

    Rebajlo Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,501
    Location:
    N.S.W. - Australia
    frederic - I take it that You are referring to that fellow calling himself "samba" who commented beneath the article on the Caste Football homepage.

    Have a look at my reply...:icon_wink:
     
  18. DixieDestroyer

    DixieDestroyer Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2007
    Messages:
    9,464
    Location:
    Dixieland
    Believe it or not, the ol' Destroyer from Dixieland played some soccer in my younger days. I recall Pele being hailed as the greatest ever....but I never researched it. Even becoming aware of the caste system, I never looked into Pele (as I don't follow soccer anymore). However, I'm not surprised to learn he (like Clay) is massively overhyped and overrated.
     
  19. Colonel_Reb

    Colonel_Reb Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    14,000
    Location:
    The Deep South
    That was a funny accusation. People usually resort to personal attacks when their arguments have failed.
     
  20. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
    great answer :thumbsup:

    i can't believe that they mention friendly club matches as proof of pele's greatness
    it's true that if you saw 1 single friendly club match in your life, you know that it means nothing

    they called you an argentinean , and one of "them" called me an eurocentric on their forum :grin:
     
  21. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,208
    A couple of weeks ago I watched a programme in Britain about Lionel Messi. It was interesting to hear Arsene Wenger when asked who the best player in the world is. "Messi", he replied without hesitation. He was then asked who is the greatest ever. He hesitated for a second then said, "Probably Messi". If even someone who hires as many non-whites as Wenger does thinks Messi's better then the tide is turning against Pele's mostly unquestioned status as #1 of all time.
     
  22. MilanClass

    MilanClass Guru

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Kalifornia
    Pele: Lionel Messi is not as good as Neymar


    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...lionel-messi-is-not-as-good-as-neymar?cc=5901


    Brazil legend Pele has raised eyebrows by claiming Lionel Messi is not as good as Neymar.
    [TABLE="width: 275, align: right"]
    [TR]
    [TD][​IMG][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="align: left"]Neymar and Messi came head to head at the Club World Cup. (GettyImages)[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]


    Messi won the FIFA World Player of the Year award in 2009 and scooped the inaugural FIFA Ballon d'Or in 2010 and 2011.
    He has thrust his form yet higher this season and took his goals tally for the campaign to 61 in Barcelona's win over Getafe on Tuesday night.
    The Argentina superstar has won a raft of club honours with Barca but has yet to deliver on the international stage. This has not halted comparisons between Messi and two of the game's greats: Pele and Diego Maradona.
    Pele, though, is of the opinion that not only is Messi below the level of himself and Maradona, he is also convinced Messi has to raise his game in order to be as good as 20-year-old Santos forward Neymar.
    "Now everyone is talking about Messi; he is a star. But [to be the best ever] he must first become better than Neymar," Pele said. "At the moment Messi is just more experienced."


    :biggrin: :bounce:
     
  23. frederic38

    frederic38 Hall of Famer

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4,774
    Location:
    france-grenoble
    maybe he said that on april fools' day? :undecided:
     
  24. Rebajlo

    Rebajlo Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,501
    Location:
    N.S.W. - Australia
    Dixie - As a 100% "racially aware" little kid I was forever sickened by talk of Pele, Cassius Clay, and that bloody rice-gnat Bruce Lee. Wherever one turned, the media was telling everyone that non-Whites were better than Whites: the ultimate football player was black, the ultimate boxer was black, and the ultimate "martial artist" was Asian.

    Anyone who experienced the tail end of the seventies as a small child shall be familiar with one of the great schoolyard debates: "Who would win a fight between Muhammad Ali and Bruce Lee?" My perennially-controversial answer was that the n and ch (the miniature Rebajlo was noted - particularly by teachers and headmasters - for diligently employing "traditional" terminology vis-a-vis "people of colour" :thumb:) were artificial, Jewish-manufactured icons whose purpose is to make us feel inferior and that under "non-manipulated" conditions both of them would be handily dismantled by Whites "with blood and teeth flying into the back rows of the crowd". Needless to say, this type of talk was wasted on my fellow six and seven year olds. Ignorant little pricks... :icon_wink:

    Being a pint-sized football nutcase, it always pissed me off that every wormy-arsed, nose-picking, lice-infested brat had heard of Pele, yet didn't know who George Best, Alfredo Di Stefano, Johan Cruyff or Bobby Charlton were. Mind You, I was even more pissed off that nobody had heard of Wlodzimierz Lubanski, Kazimierz Deyna and Grzegorz Lato, nor was anyone even remotely aware of the existence of Peterborough United or Pogon Szczecin. :icon_wink:

    I did my research (which, in the pre-Internet days, was rather painstaking, especially in the soccer-unfriendly setting of Australia in the very late 1970s and early 1980s) and armed myself with an arsenal of statistics to back up my constant disparagement of that most overrated of Brazilian Negroes. Yet it was still always Pele, Pele, and Pele - until the 1982 World Cup introduced the Argentine "wonder boy" Diego Maradona to television audiences around the world. But despite Maradona's prodigious play throughout the 1980s (and the fact that he was partly mestizo :lightbulb:), the Negro's name was often inserted into match commentaries and reports as a magically superior yardstick by journalists anxious to preserve the Pele myth which was disintegrating before their very eyes.

    Nothing better illustrates the desperation to belittle Maradona than the woeful attempt in certain quarters of the media to proclaim the black "Dutchman" Ruud Gullit as the "world's best player" following the Netherlands' triumph at the 1988 European Championship. This was such a transparent bid to hype up a contemporary Negro as an alternative to the Argentine that it marked an insultingly unprofessional low-point in sports journalism which even managed to surprise a hard-bitten cynical teenager like myself.
     
  25. Matra2

    Matra2 Master

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,208
    Marco van Basten was the player of that tournament. He scored a hat-trick against England, a great last minute winning goal against West Germany, and, of course, what many consider the greatest goal from a volley ever scored in the final.
     

Share This Page